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Author Topic: Weight loss cat food - choice of two strategies  (Read 3682 times)
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angeltjd
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« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2007, 05:48:21 PM »

Of course portion control is a part of any weight loss regime.  But low fat works great for humans and not necessarily so great for cats.  Cats being carnivores have a unique ability to burn fat by eating fat.  It's not just high protein that maintains lean muscle mass but *moderate* fat and low carb.

Obesity is not the only factor is developing diabetes.  I can attest to many cats at ideal weight that develop diabetes.  IMVHO, obesity and diabetes come from the same source in felines.  Bad diet.  Carb laden meat flavored cereals cause obesity in cats and cause diabetes.  One in the same.

Cynic, do you have an obese diabetic cat?  Can you personally attest to the correlation between weight loss, diabetic regulation and diet?  My cat was on those so called low fat diet foods and I was counting kibble per kibble for portion control, 1/4 cup per day (that's 2 oz!).  I still had an overweight and very grumpy fat cat.  With the diabetes diagnosis I learned much on nutrition and with a diet change the pounds melted off immediately and he was eating a *normal* portion of food (6-8oz).  Can I feed him as much as his little heart desires?  Of course not, he loves to eat and would eat all day long if he had his choice. Oh and to date, he has lost 9 pounds!  After almost 2 years we've almost made it to our goal weight of 15 pounds. He eats 3 oz of Wellness Turkey and 3 oz of my homemade raw each day.

Plus if you want to compare the caloric content of a low carb wet food and a prescription dry food:

Dry Hills W/D has 281 calories per cup (8oz) = 36 cal per oz
Canned Wellness Turkey 218 calories per 5.5oz = 39 cal per oz

Not much difference calorie wise but the Wellness is a species appropriate diet containing the moisture, protein and fat that a obligatory carnivore needs.  Compared to a lot of low carb canned foods, Wellness also tops the charts as far as cal go per oz because they have a higher %fat/per kcal.  Many other canned foods have less. My raw recipe I feed contains about 35 cal per oz and I *gasp* include the fatty chicken skin.

It's not all about portion control, it's also the *quality* of the ingredients.  I could eat low fat pretzels as my meals limiting caloric intake, sure I'd lose weight but it wouldn't be quality nutrition.  If you focus on just calorie control and not optimum nutrition the body when malnourished goes into starvation mode and conserves fat instead of burning it.




« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 08:08:40 AM by angeltjd » Logged

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Cynic
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« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2007, 07:47:34 PM »

Angelt,

No, I don't have a cat.  However - in my post I am referring directly to the info that someone else has provided... here is quote from the study re: diabetic cats that is given in Jenny's post...LC-LF is low carb, low fiber, MC-HF is moderate carb, high fiber:

"There was no significant difference in the initial or final mean body weights or in the mean change in body weight from week 0 to week 16 between dietary groups. Diabetic cats in this study were significantly more likely to revert to a non-insulin-dependent state when fed the canned LC-LF food versus the MC-HF food"

So YES, the low carb regime worked better for diabetes.  NO, it did not magically melt off the weight during the trial period.

Note also that diabetic cats often lose weight due to the fact that they have diabetes, and not due to any miracle of dietary composition.  They are sick.  They lose their appetites.  They lose weight. 

You, yourself are admitting that you follow a *moderate* fat diet.  (Although you state that cats "burn fat by eating fat" - whatever this means, I have no clue - if this is the case, why aren't you suggesting a HIGH fat for weight loss to really fire up that burning/losing process?  Cat might waste away, get too lean?? Ha ha ha) And you state you use careful portion control.  Portion control works because you are controlling calories.  Moderate fat works because you are reducing/controlling calories.

Looks like you are telling the same story as me / arabiannikki.  Great.

I also state that there are better / worse choices for weight loss (due to body composition changes, metabolic rate) - same idea as your pretzel analogy.  (Go back to my first post to thread starter, I thought both of the diets she had chosen were pretty poor choices due to their relatively pretzel-like composition).

Once again, we are telling the same story.  (except for that weird "burn fat / eat fat" thing, which can be all yours, baby).


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angeltjd
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« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2007, 05:48:24 AM »

Recent anecdotal evidence indicates that a low carbohydrate, high protein, and moderate fat-containing diet may be more effective at inducing weight loss in some obese cats while maintaining better satiety than higher carbohydrate and fiber-containing weight loss diets. Dietary fat is generally more effective on a caloric basis at inducing satiety than carbohydrate. Further, cats appear to be unlike any other species, in that increased dietary fat intake increases rates of fat oxidation. This may explain the observation that growth diets can be used effectively to induce weight loss and maintain satiety in cats.

http://www.vin.com/Proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=SAVMA2002&PID=1342

Increased dietary protein promotes fat loss and reduces loss of lean body mass during weight loss in cats.
http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol3Iss2/LAFLAMME.pdf

Excess carbohydrates are not burned as energy in a cat, they are converted to triglycerides and stored as fat.  Traditionally low cal, high fiber diets have been used for weight loss in cats.  They *may* lose weight on these diets but they also lose lean muscle mass.  It is also difficult to maintain weight loss with these diets without STRICT calorie reduction.

The portion control that I use is *normal* portions not limited or strict calorie reduction.  I just don't OVERFEED.  Most owners of cats blatantly overfeed by leaving a heaping bowl of unlimited food for the cat to graze on at will.  Cats are not cows, they are predators and don't need food left out 24/7.  Meal feeding is more appropriate and conducive to weight loss along with an appopriate diet.

Unregulated diabetic cats lose weight from being unregulated, not just because they are diabetic.   Regulated diabetic cats maintain their weight just fine in most cases.  Also, the vast majority of feline diabetics are type 2 which is directly related to diet and a good portion of cats can and do "lose the diabetes" with a change in diet before there is too much beta cell damage.  Check out http://felinediabetes.com/ and http://yourdiabeticcat.com/ for lots and lots of examples.  It is fairly rare for a cat to have type 1 diabetes (tho in dogs, it's more common to have type 1 diabetes). 
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angeltjd
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« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2007, 07:35:41 AM »

I wanted to add one more thing.  I don't think I am expressing myself clearly.  Undecided My point is that weight loss has to do with more than calories and portion control.  For example, say I'm on a diet of 1200 calories for weight loss.  I eat 1200 calories of ice cream, candy bars and junk.  Am I going to lose weight?  Maybe or maybe not.  I'll still have excess body fat.  Just because I lost weight wouldn't make it a healthy weight loss, if I'm gaining fat and losing lean muscle mass.  If I ate 1200 calories of veggies, fruits, lean meats, yada yada, I would lose weight and lose fat.  Also, after I got down to my ideal weight, I could increase my calorie intake eating the same foods and maintain a healthy weight.  If I continued to eat cr*p, I would never be able to increase my calorie intake to normal or I would gain all that weight back.  Do you see difference and what I'm trying to say.  What you eat makes as much as a difference as how much you eat.
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« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2007, 09:32:41 AM »

It's good to have solid, heated debates amongst us and I encourage them to continue.  However, IMHO we can leave out the "no common sense", "no brain cells", "on cloud nine", "just a bleep on my screen" etc. to get your points across.  I hate to have to weed through all the pointless emotions that are thrown in. 

Can we just play nice already?
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angeltjd
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« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2007, 11:25:45 AM »

"Honey, do you smell something burning?"  "Yes, the cat is on a high fat diet"

That's juvenile.

It's obvious people can't play nice here.  It's unfortunate that they have to resort to name calling and rude behavior.
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JustMe
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« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2007, 11:52:09 AM »

I can't follow this whole thread, all I can speak to is experience I had with a diabetic cat.  My cat was a big cat, I mean big as in big boned.  Her head was almost twice the size of other cats.  All my cats at the time, maybe 10 years ago, were fed dry Gwainy Cwap (I just love those words karvs') and Fancy Feast maybe once or twice a week as a treat.  Okay.  This big boned cat became overweight, suddenly she lost loads of weight and was diagnosed with diabetes.  I had to give her insulin shots twice a day to control her blood glucose.  She gained her weight back, but not as much) after her blood sugar was regulated.  I never changed food back then.  After a few years (still no food changes), she was no longer diabetic and I was able to discontinue the insulin.  She was still on the same Gwainy Cwap and Fancy Feast.  The Gwainy Cwap was a Light dry food sold at vets and at pet stores.  All my cats back then got the same amount of food, from the little 10 pounder up to the 20 pounder.  They got 1/4 cup of Gwainy Cwap twice a day, or Fancy Feast.  I never free fed ever.  So, here I had this 10 pound cat who lived 19 years and never changed weight until her last year of life.  On the other hand, I had this 20 pound kitty who also lived to almost 20 years on the same amount of food until her last year of life. 
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dingbat
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« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2007, 02:09:20 PM »

cynic + ariabnnikki

If you feel the absolute need to call names and act like general A$$$$$$s then go to the ring. That is the place for the name calling and really bitter attitudes. NOT here

These forums are for information, and if you know that much maybe you should write a book that I am sure all of us would love to read. Grin

db Grin
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Nabiya
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« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2007, 02:30:14 PM »

cynic + ariabnnikki

If you feel the absolute need to call names and act like general A$$$$$$s then go to the ring. That is the place for the name calling and really bitter attitudes. NOT here

These forums are for information, and if you know that much maybe you should write a book that I am sure all of us would love to read. Grin

db Grin

Thank you, db, spoken like a true leader.....
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Orange Fuzzball
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« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2007, 02:58:38 PM »

It's good to have solid, heated debates amongst us and I encourage them to continue.  However, IMHO we can leave out the "no common sense", "no brain cells", "on cloud nine", "just a bleep on my screen" etc. to get your points across.  I hate to have to weed through all the pointless emotions that are thrown in. 

Can we just play nice already?

I agree with this post.

I'm the OP of this thread, and I really appreciate all the feedback from people on both sides of the debate. It's a good discussion - but it'd be an even better discussion without the name-calling. I'm not even sure why the disagreement is so heated, since both sides seem to have a lot in common. You all seem to agree on things like portion and calorie control and hydration; you just disagree on whether protein vs. carbs affects weight loss. Hardly something to get so bent out of shape over.  Huh
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filbert
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« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2007, 03:21:42 PM »

I've been in plenty debates myself and usually the people who end up calling people names or getting flustered are the ones who are the "losers." 

For those of you accusing others of having no common sense, etc., you may be right but if you can't calmly and logically explain yourself, then you've already lost the debate and you're just making yourself look like a fool.  If you care for animals as much as you say you do, then teach and educate people in a humble and respectful manner, for the benefit of animals everywhere.

For those of you put off by the name calling and bullying behavior, this is the internet; if you haven't developed a thick skin and gotten used to this yet, then here's your opportunity.  As rude and disprespectful as some people may be, this is the unfortunate reality of the internet.  Take the high road and don't let it bother you.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 03:23:41 PM by filbert » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2007, 05:46:44 PM »

One of the things I have thought about is that actually there are many points of agreement even among those that are arguing & insulting.  It seems we all agree that carbs can cause issues for cats.  It seems that we all agree to cutting calories.   The only thing I don't think we agreed on was where fat fit in.  So, it seems like we are arguing for the sake of argument?

When I evaluated my cats weight loss diet, fat was not really considered.  I looked at protein (goal around 45 % on a dry matter basis) and over all calories.  Fat only came into effect on the calories - I did not look it on it's own.  I also evaluate carbs (less than 15 % dry matter) and phosphorus.   My cats were gaining weight on the lowest calorie dry cat food I know of - Royal Canin Weight Control 38  high protein dry - at 235 calories a cup.  We fed them a cup a day, sometimes more,  because any less they became very grumpy.  They are not grumpy on the canned at 210 calories a day.   Now, my IBD cat is another story but he doesn't need to loose weight.

And, by the way, the post I made with all the links...the first one is not greco, it is Dr Zoran.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 05:51:54 PM by jenny » Logged
Nabiya
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« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2007, 06:42:02 PM »

I've been in plenty debates myself and usually the people who end up calling people names or getting flustered are the ones who are the "losers." 

For those of you accusing others of having no common sense, etc., you may be right but if you can't calmly and logically explain yourself, then you've already lost the debate and you're just making yourself look like a fool.  If you care for animals as much as you say you do, then teach and educate people in a humble and respectful manner, for the benefit of animals everywhere.

For those of you put off by the name calling and bullying behavior, this is the internet; if you haven't developed a thick skin and gotten used to this yet, then here's your opportunity.  As rude and disprespectful as some people may be, this is the unfortunate reality of the internet.  Take the high road and don't let it bother you.
filbert:  there's actually a third group of us out here, those that can't (or shouldn't, he-he) access forums on the Internet during the business day, that after they get home start reviewing a few sites for the latest info and news, updates, recalls, opinions (yes, opinions!).  So we end up looking at a hundred or so posts at night in a short time span to get our necessary knowledge to stay alive (along with our families and pets of course).  As I stated in my previous post, I hate to have to weed through all pointless emotions.  But the intended content is good and needed from both sides, just need it to be a little cleaner so I can spend more time with my kitties....
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