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Author Topic: Weight loss cat food - choice of two strategies  (Read 3686 times)
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Orange Fuzzball
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« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2007, 07:06:48 PM »

I wish someone would come out with a holistic prescription line. The ones on the market right now are pretty horrid. I guess the difficulty is in breaking the Hill's/Purina/etc monopoly on veterinary practices; otherwise that would be a great business opportunity for one of the better companies.


The reason they don't (and you'll see it on the site) - is that Prescription Diets are just marketing tools (as you've seen - they just don't do the trick).

A wholesome diet is all the Kitty/Dog needs.  There is no need for special Diets with Gwainy stuff for kitties.  Healthy food is all they need (the closer to homemade, the better).

I wouldn't buy a Prescription Diet.  They don't need it (I know - 14 yo kitty, vast improvement after almost 9 years of Gwainy Cwap - or whenever they started dummying down the ingredients - still kicking).

True, but not everyone knows that. They'll freak out at their pet's diagnosis and feed what the vet's office sells, and might back away from feeding real healthy food if the vet convinces them it's a bad idea. Having the option of a holistic prescription food that their vet won't fight them on could help out a lot of pets who would otherwise be subjected to the Gwainy Cwap.
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karvskitties
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« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2007, 07:38:12 PM »


True, but not everyone knows that. They'll freak out at their pet's diagnosis and feed what the vet's office sells, and might back away from feeding real healthy food if the vet convinces them it's a bad idea. Having the option of a holistic prescription food that their vet won't fight them on could help out a lot of pets who would otherwise be subjected to the Gwainy Cwap.

I dunno there.  I think we should become better educated (so as to know that Prescription Food is not needed - and the websites explain why).  Also - catinfo.org, caatnutrition.org, etc.

Check out E. Hamilton's Thread: Join the Alice Army! in Making a Difference.
http://itchmoforums.com/index.php?topic=812.0

Its about not only educating Vet's on Food's in General, but that they are actually pushing Poison (as the latest Science Diet Cyanuric Acid blg on Itchmo points out).

I wouldn't want to compromise the value of the REAL Premium foods to please the many skeptical folks out there, Wellness Dry Food Line is starting to Venture out for Cats (and I'm not pleased with it - its niche marketing - the Healthy Weight and Indoor Formula are now formulated like the marketed Brand Names - losing the quality of the food in general).  For instance - the NRC recommends just feeding less food (not lower quality) for weight loss.  Reducing Fat, and raising carbs - is not the answer for weight loss, nor indoor kitty health (but it makes sense to people whom think animals digest the same as humans).

Folks need to learn this.  Whats better for Indoor kitties is Protein, Fat, and a tad higher Fiber (natural of course), NOT CARBS.  So you can buy a premium food looking at these totals, without going through an Indoor Formula, Healthy Weight/Reduced Fat Formula/Hairball Formula/Urinary Tract Formula, etc.

Okay - episodic Rambling over.  Grin
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Karen V

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Orange Fuzzball
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« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2007, 08:58:36 PM »


Okay - episodic Rambling over.  Grin

Good ramble though - most of the human race needs a cluebat upside the head.  Tongue
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karvskitties
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« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2007, 10:00:45 AM »

Such a huge debate on something so simple. No matter what you choose to feed, the bottom line is Kcals. The fewer Kcals the more weightloss. Same as people, if you put more calories in than are burned there will be weight gain. If you put less calories in then there will be weightloss. The biggest problem we see is over feeding treats and free feeding. The only thing you have to remember with cats is that they have to lose weight very slowly. No more than 0.5% a month. I have seen it take as long as 2 years to safely get a cat back to optimal weight. The reason is that cats which lose weight too fast are at risk for a disease called hepatic lipidosis, a potentially fatal disease.

That's the point Nikki - its not like people.  Cats don't digest fats and carbs the same way people do - that's the mistake everyone makes when buying the food.

IT DOES MATTER WHAT YOU FEED - SINCE ORANGE FUZZBALL STARTED THE THREAD - AND THE CAT WASN'T LOSING WEIGHT.   Reduced Fat diet Cat Food DOES NOT WORK.  So just considering KCal without the components of the diet itself is BAD FOR KITTY.

Second Episodic Rant over.  Kiss
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Karen V

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Orange Fuzzball
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« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2007, 02:37:10 PM »

Too early to say whether the CalNat will help with KD's weight loss, but I can say this - she sure as hell loves that stuff! I'm convinced she can somehow smell it through the bag. I'm going to have to crack down even harder on the portion control.  Wink

Still haven't been able to get started with the Felidae canned - the pet food store doesn't have their new stock in yet. Just a few large cans of the old soupy formula, and I've heard the pate is better so I'm waiting for them to get some of that in.
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jenny
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« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2007, 04:46:39 PM »

Just some links and info regarding the discussions above......

Quote
Interesting Reading from JAVMA (2002):
http://www.avma.org/publications/default.asp  (http://home.earthlink.net/~jacm2/id1.html)
•   CHO = complex carbohydrate = corn, wheat, rice, oats, rye, barley = these are all starches. Other starches – tapioca, potato
•   NFE is the difference:  100 – water – crude protein – Ether Extract (fat) – Crude Fiber – Ash (minerals) = NFE Starches, sugars & all soluble carbohydrates
•   One dietary factor that is receiving increased attention in obese cats is the role of CHO-dense diets. Cats housed exclusively indoors and consuming energy-dense, high-starch, dry foods are provided with more energy than they can effectively use. Any dietary CHO not used for energy is converted and stored as fat. Diets that are severely restricted for energy (eg, traditional low-fat, high-fiber, weight-loss diets) may result in weight loss, but it is often to the detriment of lean body mass.41,d Many of these diets contain high concentrations (> 15%) of insoluble fiber, which increases fecal bulk and volume, potentially increases fecal water loss (eg, increase risk of dehydration in cats not consuming an adequate quantity of water), and has detrimental effects on nutrient (eg, protein) digestibility.42,43 Ultimately, successful weight loss requires maintenance of lean body mass, because lean body mass is the major determinant of basal energy metabolism and is a major influence on whether weight is regained.44
•   Several investigators have evaluated the use of a high-protein, low-CHO diet (protein, 45% or higher; nitrogen free extract [NFE], < 10%; energy, 3,030 kcal of metabolizable energy [ME]/kg of food on an as-fed basis) for weight loss in cats. In one study, weight reduction in cats on a high-protein, low-CHO diet was compared with that for cats fed a commercial hypoenergetic diet (protein, 34%; NFE, 45%; energy, 2,600 kcal of ME/kg of food on an as-fed basis). Cats in both groups lost weight, but cats consuming the high-protein, low-CHO diet maintained lean body mass during weight loss. Additional studies are necessary, but this approach to inducing weight loss in cats makes metabolic and nutritional sense providing that they are fed appropriate amounts of food (ie, food is not available free choice).
•   Canned foods generally are best to provide a high-protein, low-CHO dietary combination. Most dry foods are energy dense and have greater CHO concentrations (CHO > 25% on a dry-matter [DM] basis), because starch is necessary to make the kibble. The typical nutrient characteristics of canned foods formulated for kittens are 45 to 55% protein (DM basis), 8 to 15% starch (DM basis), and 15 to 25% fat (DM basis) with little dietary fiber (< 1% [DM basis]). These characteristics are not far removed from that of the natural diet of cats (Appendix 1).

Notes from 2003 AVMA convention – The ‘catkins’ diet
http://www.catnutrition.org/catkins.html

•   So what's Dr. Greco's ideal cat food diet? She recommends a wet food, high in protein, high in fat, and low in carbohydrates. It's basically a "CatKins" diet, much like the Atkins diet popular today. This diet is going to keep a cat slim and help it avoid diabetes

J Feline Med Surg. 2006 Apr;8(2):73-84. Epub 2005 Nov 7.  Comparison of a low carbohydrate-low fiber diet and a moderate carbohydrate-high fiber diet in the management of feline diabetes mellitus.Bennett N, Greco DS, Peterson ME, Kirk C, Mathes M, Fettman MJ. Department of Clinical Sciences, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, 80523, USA. nbennet@colostate.edu   
•   This study compared the effects of a moderate carbohydrate-high fiber (MC-HF) food and a low carbohydrate-low fiber (LC-LF) food on glycemic control in cats with diabetes mellitus. Sixty-three diabetic cats (48 male castrated, 15 female spayed) were randomly assigned to be fed either a canned MC-HF (n = 32) food or a canned LC-LF (n = 31) food for 16 weeks. Owners were blinded to the type of diet fed. CBC, urinalysis, serum chemistry panel, fructosamine concentration and thyroxine concentration were determined on initial examination, and a complete blood count, serum chemistry panel, urinalysis and serum fructosamine concentration were repeated every 4 weeks for 16 weeks. Insulin doses were adjusted as needed to resolve clinical signs and lower serum fructosamine concentrations. Serum glucose (P = 0.0001) and fructosamine (P = 0.0001) concentrations significantly decreased from week 0 to week 16 in both dietary groups. By week 16, significantly more of the cats fed the LC-LF food (68%, 22/31), compared to the cats fed the MC-HF food (41%, 13/32), had reverted to a non-insulin-dependent state (P = 0.03). Cats in both groups were successfully taken off of insulin regardless of age, sex, type of insulin administered or duration of clinical disease before entering the study. There was no significant difference in the initial or final mean body weights or in the mean change in body weight from week 0 to week 16 between dietary groups. Diabetic cats in this study were significantly more likely to revert to a non-insulin-dependent state when fed the canned LC-LF food versus the MC-HF food.
Nutrition.org - 2004 The American Society for Nutritional Sciences J. Nutr. 134-2068S "Carbohydrate Malabsorption Is a Feature of Feline Inflammatory Bowel Disease But Does not Increase Clinical Gastrointestinal Signs".   

PubMed - J Nutr 2004 Aug; 134(Cool "Canine and feline diabetes mellitus: nature or nurture?"•   Type 2 diabetes is the most common form of diabetes in cats. Evidence for genetic factors in feline diabetes includes the overrepresentation of Burmese cats with diabetes. Environmental risk factors in domestic or Burmese cats include advancing age, obesity, male gender, neutering, drug treatment, physical inactivity, and indoor confinement. High-carbohydrate diets increase blood glucose and insulin levels and may predispose cats to obesity and diabetes. Low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets may help prevent diabetes in cats at risk such as obese cats or lean cats with underlying low insulin sensitivity.
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JustMe
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« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2007, 04:57:46 PM »

Just some links and info regarding the discussions above......
Jenny, Great links. Thank you.
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« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2007, 08:54:49 AM »

TBOBINA-
Has your cat had bloodwork done yet?  To help with the urine sample you could add some water to her wet food.  I do this with all my cats, and I have one who recently had a UTI& kidney infection and showed early CRF in the bloodwork.  I feed this cat Natura California Nautural wet because I don't trust other companies and haven't found anything else so far.  She was eating a different food even higher in phosphorous when I noticed she was becoming sick.  Despite the phosphorous content of the california natural I decided to use it over the prescription foods and see how she does with retesting blood test levels.  I think you will have a better idea of what direction to go in with food once you have the tests done.  Good luck getting the urine done- would you be able to remove the litter box for a few hours before the visit?  I've done that along with adding water to the food and it went fine.
Lanie
Yay I finally got my baby's urine sample.  Get this, went to a Michaels and bought some stuff called Polly pellets and used that as the litter.  That is what they were going to sell me at the animal hospital, but they were only going to give me a 1/4 cup for 2.50$ so i went to the craft store and bought a bag for 6$ to make sure she would use it, i knew my kitty would not use only a 1/4 cup.  So now I am off to the vet, now all I can do is pray for good results
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karvskitties
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« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2007, 08:29:49 PM »

Thats funny. I wonder why so many cats we have on the diet seem to lose weight. And have been for years and years on veterinary diets and restrictions.  Oh, and yes. It is all the same. If you don't eat MORE than your body needs in whatever species it will lose weight. Simple common sense. Put in less than the body needs and voila" weight loss. Its worked for decades.  Imagine all those cats we have had on diets and lost weight,  we now have to tell them it doesn't work, it was a figment of our imagination. cause you said so.

Cats do NOT digest Vegetable Proteins the same as Animal/Fat amino acids.  However, though I'm sure you might have touched on this in your Nutrition classes, I've brought along some informational reading for you.

Presuming, of course, you don't want to buy the $260+ book on Nutrient Requirements for Cats and Dogs via BANR/NRC circa publication 2006.  Also, added something just to pique interest on Commercially Branded foods.  The NRC for cats describes the weight loss for Overweight Cats.  Also, huge section on Animal Proteins vs. Vegetable Proteins (suggest everyone download these materials).

Chicken First: marketing ploy or quality enhancement?
http://www.petfoodindustry-digital.com/petfoodindustry/200705/?pm=2&zin=110&u1=texterity&b=0&pg=36&z=68

BANR Petdoor: Nutrient Requirements for Dogs and Cats
http://dels.nas.edu/banr/petdoor.html

Nutrient Requirements for Cats:
http://dels.nas.edu/banr/cats.html

Nutrient Requirements for Dogs (I haven't downloaded this - enjoy):
http://dels.nas.edu/banr/dogs.html

Enjoy.  (Maybe you missed this when I first posted this in the thread?)  Provides the info upon which I was relying.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 08:33:47 PM by karvskitties » Logged


Karen V

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« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2007, 06:53:21 PM »

Wow, I haven't checked this site in a few weeks, and here is Karen STILL arguing that weight loss is not related to calorie intake, but only to eeevil carbohydrates.

Is the world flat too?  Should I start a thread titled "Gravity - just a marketing ploy designed to sell shoes", or "I forget - How many days does it take the sun to circle the Earth?"

It would be amusing, (and I have been amused by your posts), if it were not scary to think of pet owners being mislead by your blather.   Why don't you READ some of the links you have posted, and think about what they are saying?   

You keep confusing two concepts - cats get diabetes, and cats get fat.  Do fat cats get diabetes, does obesity contribute to incidence of diabetes - absolutely, no doubt.  Are most of these cats fat/diabetic due to eating high quantities of dry/high carb cat foods - well, yes, because that is what MOST people feed their cats, on a free choice basis, and cats do have different enzyme systems.  No one is disagreeing with this. 

BUT - Can a cat get fat from eating too much high protein, high fat, zero carb food - YES!!!   Otherwise, why would portion control be mentioned in your links?  Does a diabetic cat instantly lose weight if put on a low carb diet that regulates its diabetes - NO - as the study you have posted has reported.  A fat cat still needs calorie control to lose weight, regardless of the diet, regardless of whether or not it has diabetes. 

LOWER calories, from a LOWER fat diet will give better weight loss results.  Research shows that YES, higher protein diets are more effective because they maintain lean body mass. 

But the bottom line is - as Arabiannikki has tried again to explain - more calories in than out = fat cat, regardless of the composition of the calories.  There are better/worse choices, but removing carbs does not magically equal diet cat food. 

And people wonder why the U.S is a country full of fat people.   Roll Eyes   

BTW - you do realize that Dr. Greco now works for PURINA, right?  And that the vast majority of the diabetes cat research you all love to quote was originally funded by Purina too? 

I will check back in July to see what other scientific facts you have overruled using Google and PubMed. 


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Nabiya
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« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2007, 07:20:26 PM »

Rudeness
From Wikipedia
Rudeness is the (apparent) disrespect and failure to behave within the context of a society or a group of people's social laws or etiquette. These laws have already unspokenly been established as the essential boundaries of normally accepted behaviour. To be unable to align one's behaviour with these laws known to the general population of what is socially acceptable would considered rude.  Embarrassed
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TBOBINA
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« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2007, 08:28:55 PM »

Wow, I haven't checked this site in a few weeks, and here is Karen STILL arguing that weight loss is not related to calorie intake, but only to eeevil carbohydrates.

Is the world flat too?  Should I start a thread titled "Gravity - just a marketing ploy designed to sell shoes", or "I forget - How many days does it take the sun to circle the Earth?"

It would be amusing, (and I have been amused by your posts), if it were not scary to think of pet owners being mislead by your blather.   Why don't you READ some of the links you have posted, and think about what they are saying?   

You keep confusing two concepts - cats get diabetes, and cats get fat.  Do fat cats get diabetes, does obesity contribute to incidence of diabetes - absolutely, no doubt.  Are most of these cats fat/diabetic due to eating high quantities of dry/high carb cat foods - well, yes, because that is what MOST people feed their cats, on a free choice basis, and cats do have different enzyme systems.  No one is disagreeing with this. 

BUT - Can a cat get fat from eating too much high protein, high fat, zero carb food - YES!!!   Otherwise, why would portion control be mentioned in your links?  Does a diabetic cat instantly lose weight if put on a low carb diet that regulates its diabetes - NO - as the study you have posted has reported.  A fat cat still needs calorie control to lose weight, regardless of the diet, regardless of whether or not it has diabetes. 

LOWER calories, from a LOWER fat diet will give better weight loss results.  Research shows that YES, higher protein diets are more effective because they maintain lean body mass. 

But the bottom line is - as Arabiannikki has tried again to explain - more calories in than out = fat cat, regardless of the composition of the calories.  There are better/worse choices, but removing carbs does not magically equal diet cat food. 

And people wonder why the U.S is a country full of fat people.   Roll Eyes   

BTW - you do realize that Dr. Greco now works for PURINA, right?  And that the vast majority of the diabetes cat research you all love to quote was originally funded by Purina too? 

I will check back in July to see what other scientific facts you have overruled using Google and PubMed. 



  My cat is overweight and she has always been on a low fat diet food, until just a while ago and she has never been free fed, and never over fed always fed not even a cup a day of food, so why then is my cat overweight?Huh  I wonder?? maybe its from all that corn they cant digest, i dunno but i always fed my cats what i thought was high qaulity food, not the kind that you buy in a grocery store!
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jenny
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« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2007, 09:31:07 PM »

Cynic - I can sure see why you picked that for a name.  What a rude person. Obviously you aren't reading the facts that are contained within the scientific links.  Yes, you do need to cut calories, but it isn't that simple.  My cats were eating the lowest calorie dry prescription cat food there is - they gained weight.  I couldn't cut calories without a bunch of grumpy cats.  I did the research - some of it included above.  Determined that cats need more meat sourced protein. And guess what - my cats are now loosing weight on a high protein diet.  I am now able to cut calories too without them being grumpy.   

Quote
But the bottom line is - as Arabiannikki has tried again to explain - more calories in than out = fat cat, regardless of the composition of the calories.  There are better/worse choices, but removing carbs does not magically equal diet cat food. 

What you are saying is over simplified.  Sure I suppose a human could loose weight if they only ate low calorie, fat free cookies every day - but they would die of malnutrion.   Calories count, but quality of food counts more.

And, you need to lighten up and not be so rude.  My guess is that you are a troll that works for the pet food companies - otherwise you wouldn't be so rude about it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 09:52:20 PM by jenny » Logged
karvskitties
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« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2007, 10:37:57 PM »

Actually, friend Cynic is trying to goad me (must have missed me) - and thinks that I am the only one dolling out this info?  Really weird.

Cynic is a formulation expert for an AG company.  He used to do pet food, has moved on to farm animals (if memory serves here).
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Karen V

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jenny
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« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2007, 08:56:30 AM »

Actually I love to see pet food company papers that prove that their own food is junk.  Like the Hills paper that shows that canned food is all that is really needed for FIC - yet look at all their awful urinary track diets. 

Thanks for the info about cynic.  Makes sense to me.
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