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Author Topic: Weight loss cat food - choice of two strategies  (Read 3684 times)
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Laurie
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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2007, 08:00:53 AM »

  So Scratch, You will buy ANY food if it has the word "lite" on it and the caloric count is low? What you are doing is submitting your pet to crappy grainy food. I also believe people have enough knowledge to know what the word "lite" denotes when printed on a package. And if there are such regulations for the subjects of which you are speaking, please supply documentation. Saying "I think" and "My guess" is not enough.
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Laurie
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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2007, 08:59:52 AM »

   I have to do all the work.  According to the FDA; Many pet food labels carry the claim to be "lite" or "light". However, unlike human foods there are presently no standards for these types of "lite" or "light" pet foods. A manufacturers light product is only light in relevance to another of that SAME companies products. In some cases one companies lite product may contain more calories than another companies regular product. http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/CONSUMER/CON0290e.html
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Scratch
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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2007, 09:05:58 AM »

Excuse me Laurie,

This is my quote "What I do is find a food, any food, with the word 'lite' on the bag and check the kcal.  I then compare the kcal to the foods I like to see where they stand on the calories."  I need to go to my job now but will look for my back-up and supply it to you.  Since you asked so nicely.

Scratch
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Laurie
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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2007, 09:10:22 AM »

Excuse me Laurie,

This is my quote "What I do is find a food, any food, with the word 'lite' on the bag and check the kcal.  I then compare the kcal to the foods I like to see where they stand on the calories."  I need to go to my job now but will look for my back-up and supply it to you.  Since you asked so nicely.

Scratch
You obviously did not read my previous post.
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angeltjd
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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2007, 11:12:08 AM »

Actually recent information has shown that a moderate fat, hi protein, low carb diet promotes more weight loss and maintains leaner muscle mass than high carb, high fiber diets.  Fat consumption in cats and humans are VERY different.  You CANNOT compare nutritional requirements for an omnivore and obligatory carnivore.

www.winnfelinehealth.org/Pages/Fat_Cats.pdf

Recent anecdotal evidence indicates that a low carbohydrate, high protein, and moderate fat-containing diet may be more effective at inducing weight loss in some obese cats while maintaining better satiety than higher carbohydrate and fiber-containing weight loss diets. Dietary fat is generally more effective on a caloric basis at inducing satiety than carbohydrate. Further, cats appear to be unlike any other species, in that increased dietary fat intake increases rates of fat oxidation. This may explain the observation that growth diets can be used effectively to induce weight loss and maintain satiety in cats.

www.vin.com/Proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=SAVMA2002&PID=1342

www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol3Iss2/LAFLAMME.pdf

I've told this story 100 times but my cat got up to 25 pounds on prescription/weight loss dry food and developed diabetes.  After a short course of insulin and a diet change to WET food hi protein, moderate fat, low carb went off insulin in 2 weeks.  In the course of 2 years he has lost ***8*** pounds.



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karvskitties
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2007, 12:34:37 PM »

For Cynic - and others (the lacking pamphlets) - Reposts of links that are helpful.

http://www.petfoodindustry-digital.com/petfoodindustry/200705/?pm=2&zin=110&u1=texterity&b=0&pg=36&z=68

Entitled - Chicken First: marketing ploy or quality enhancement?

BANR Petdoor: Nutrient Requirements for Dogs and Cats
http://dels.nas.edu/banr/petdoor.html

Nutrient Requirements for Cats:
http://dels.nas.edu/banr/cats.html

Nutrient Requirements for Dogs (I haven't downloaded this - enjoy):
http://dels.nas.edu/banr/dogs.html
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Karen V

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JustMe
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2007, 12:45:10 PM »

I have had good luck in the last 1-1/2 months feeding canned grain-free food to my cats of various ages.  The 3 chubbier ones have started to slim down gradually.  They aren't looking for food in between meals, but they are used to being fed only twice a day and have never been free fed throughout the day.  I feel they are getting more moisture with the wet food, I even mix in a little water for the older cats' food.  Their stools are small now, less to clean up.  Their fur is nice and soft (I'm assuming that is due to being better hydrated these days?  They used to be on mostly dry food.)  They seem happy overall.
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karvskitties
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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2007, 12:48:56 PM »

I have had good luck in the last 1-1/2 months feeding canned grain-free food to my cats of various ages.  The 3 chubbier ones have started to slim down gradually.  They aren't looking for food in between meals, but they are used to being fed only twice a day and have never been free fed throughout the day.  I feel they are getting more moisture with the wet food, I even mix in a little water for the older cats' food.  Their stools are small now, less to clean up.  Their fur is nice and soft (I'm assuming that is due to being better hydrated these days?  They used to be on mostly dry food.)  They seem happy overall.

Good job with the kitties.
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Karen V

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Monika
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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2007, 01:14:28 PM »

I have had good luck in the last 1-1/2 months feeding canned grain-free food to my cats of various ages.  The 3 chubbier ones have started to slim down gradually.  They aren't looking for food in between meals, but they are used to being fed only twice a day and have never been free fed throughout the day.  I feel they are getting more moisture with the wet food, I even mix in a little water for the older cats' food.  Their stools are small now, less to clean up.  Their fur is nice and soft (I'm assuming that is due to being better hydrated these days?  They used to be on mostly dry food.)  They seem happy overall.

Perhaps I missed the brand of wet food you have been feeding somewhere in previous posts so forgive me for asking, but which brand are you using?  I need my cats to lost about 2-3 lbs each.  Thanks.
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karvskitties
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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2007, 01:35:39 PM »

I have had good luck in the last 1-1/2 months feeding canned grain-free food to my cats of various ages.  The 3 chubbier ones have started to slim down gradually.  They aren't looking for food in between meals, but they are used to being fed only twice a day and have never been free fed throughout the day.  I feel they are getting more moisture with the wet food, I even mix in a little water for the older cats' food.  Their stools are small now, less to clean up.  Their fur is nice and soft (I'm assuming that is due to being better hydrated these days?  They used to be on mostly dry food.)  They seem happy overall.

Perhaps I missed the brand of wet food you have been feeding somewhere in previous posts so forgive me for asking, but which brand are you using?  I need my cats to lost about 2-3 lbs each.  Thanks.

There are several good ones out there (might want to watch the phosphorous thought - especially if Indoor Kitties).

Ones that come to mind: Wellness, Evangers (Orijen? Not Sure if canned) EVO, etc.  Personally, a well crafted Premim (I use either Innova Regular or Felidae) will also do the trick.  If kitties not used to Canned food, will need transitioning.  This will also get them used to controlled meals (where you can control their caloried consumption - see the Nutrient Requirements for Cats above - it provides help with Calories for Overweight Kitties).

Transitioning:
http://www.catinfo.org/#Transitioning_Dry_Food_Addicts_to_Canned_Food_
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Karen V

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JustMe
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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2007, 03:00:46 PM »

Perhaps I missed the brand of wet food you have been feeding somewhere in previous posts so forgive me for asking, but which brand are you using?  I need my cats to lost about 2-3 lbs each.  Thanks.
No, you didn't miss, I just didn't want to sound like an advertisement.  LOL. 

I'm using Wellness grain-free right now. 

I bought some Felidae (not grain-free) and Evo to try, too, along with Evangers and Merrick, but haven't tried them yet as I'm sticking with the grain-free for the present time.

If you try a canned, just make sure you don't underfeed them or overfeed it.   I find 6 ounces a day (I break it up into morning and evening) seems to be pretty good.  A little more for the cats over 15 pounds, so you would probably want to feed your big kitties more than 6 ounces a day.  Check the labels and the websites for feeding amounts and/or talk to your vet.  My cats seem satisfied on the wet food.
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Scratch
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« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2007, 08:35:54 PM »

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2001/301_pet.html
Making Sense of 'Light' and 'Lean' in Pet Food
May-June 2001
The calorie and fat contents listed below are the maximum limits allowed in dog and cat food labeled "light" or "lean." These definitions are established by the Association of American Feed Control Officials and authorized by the FDA. Comparisons between products in different categories of moisture content are considered misleading.
    Dry Foods (< 20 percent water)    Semi-moist Foods(20-65 percent water)    Moist Foods (> 65 percent water)
Light, lite or low calorie     Dogs: 1,409 calories per pound Cats: 1,477 calories per pound   Dogs: 1,136 calories per pound Cats: 1,205 calories per pound    Dogs: 409 calories per poundCats: 432 calories per pound
Lean or low fat    Dogs: 9 percent fat Cats: 10 percent fat    Dogs: 7 percent fat Cats: 8 percent fat    Dogs: 4 percent fat Cats: 5 percent fat
http://www.petcaretips.net/reading-pet-food-label.html
A Cook College Pet Seminar, April 10, 1994
By David A. Dzanis, DVM, Ph.D., DACVN
Center for Veterinary Medicine
Calorie statement:
Until recently, calorie statements were not allowed on pet food labels. New AAFCO regulations were developed to allow manufacturers to substantiate calorie content and include a voluntary statement.
If a calorie statement is made on the label, it must be expressed on a "kilocalories per kilogram" basis. Kilocalories are the same as the "Calories" consumers are used to seeing on food labels. A "kilogram" is a unit of metric measurement equal to 2.2 pounds. Manufacturers are also allowed to express the calories in familiar household units along with the required statement (for example, "per cup" or "per pound"). Even without this additional information, however, consumers can make meaningful comparisons between products and pick the product best suited for their animals' needs. As with the guaranteed analysis, to roughly compare the caloric content values between a canned and a dry food, multiply the value for the canned food by four.
If a calorie statement does not appear on the label, the calorie content of a pet food can be roughly estimated by using values given in the guaranteed analysis. To do this, perform the following calculations:
·   Step 1: Multiply the percent crude protein times 3.5 and write down the result.
·   Step 2: Multiply the percent crude fat times 8.5 and write down the result.
·   Step 3: Add the percentages of crude protein, crude fat, crude fiber, moisture and ash, and subtract the total from 100. This gives you the percent nitrogen-free extract (NFE), which is the carbohydrate portion.
·   Step 4: Multiply the percent NFE from Step 3 times 3.5 and write down the result.
·   Step 5: Add the results from Steps 1, 2, and 4, and multiply the total times 10.
Example:   Crude protein   24% x 3.5  =  84
   Crude fat   10% x 8.5  =  85
   Crude fiber   3%
   Moisture   10%
   Ash   5%
      52%
NFE (100-52=48)   48% x 3.5 = 168
   total 337
Calorie content = 337 X 10 = 3370 kcal/kg
Although this calculation will give you a reasonable approximation of calories for most foods, it will likely somewhat underestimate the calorie content of very digestible foods, and overestimate the value of high fiber and low quality foods.
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=labelinfo101
Calorie Statement
[...] until recently, calorie statements were not allowed on pet food labels. New AAFCO regulations were developed to allow manufacturers to substantiate calorie content and include a voluntary statement.
If a calorie statement is made on the label, it must be expressed on a "kilocalories per kilogram" basis. Kilocalories are the same as the "Calories" consumers are used to seeing on food labels. A "kilogram" is a unit of metric measurement equal to 2.2 pounds. Manufacturers are also allowed to express the calories in familiar household units along with the required statement (for example, "per cup" or "per can"). Even without this additional information, however, consumers can make meaningful comparisons between products and pick the product best suited for their animals' needs. As with the guaranteed analysis, the calorie statement is made on an "as fed" basis, so corrections for moisture content must be made as described above. [...]
The caloric content of a food gives a good idea about the digestibility of a product, but it should always be taken into consideration along with the guaranteed analysis. Fat provides more than twice the amount of energy per weight unit than protein or carbohydrates, so if a food is slightly higher in fat content, it will automatically provide more energy.
Watch out:
Caloric statements can be found in three different values:
·   Gross Energy - The amount of energy in a food product on an "as fed" basis.
·   Digestible Energy - The amount of energy available to the dog after the amount lost in feces has been substracted, and
·   Metabolizable Energy - The amount of energy available to the dog after the amount lost in feces, urine and gaseous products of digestion has been substracted. This is the most common value used.
It is easily possible to compare "apples and oranges" unless the Metabolizable Energy (ME) of all compared products is taken into consideration.
Example 1:
Manufacturer A lists the following product information:
Gross energy 1,950 Kcal/lb, digestible energy 1,700 Kcal/lb and metabolizable energy 1,550 Kcal/lb.
The competitor B only lists the metabolizable energy content of 1900 Kcal/lb.
Manufacturer B offers the more nutritious food, but manufacturer A distracts from the lower relevant value by providing all 3.
Unless you have a dog who loves eating and tends to overeat, feeding a more concentrated food is the better economic solution and also cuts down on the cleaning up you will have to do, since less waste is excreted.
Example 2:
Two products both list 24% protein, 14% fat, 3% fiber and 10% moisture.
Product A contains 2,700 Kcal/kg metabolizable energy, product B contains 3,600 Kcal/kg.
Product B is clearly the better quality food with more digestible ingredients, you need to feed much less of it per day compared to product A to supply the same amount of energy.
Another detail you need to know is that the amount of Kcal per cup isn't really a good basis of comparison, since a cup is a measurement for volume, not for weight. Depending on size and density of the kibble, one cup may hold under 3 ounces(~85 grams) to over 4 ounces (~113 grams) of food. If you can't locate the amount of Kcal per pound or kilogram on a product bag or manufacturer website, email or call to find out.

OKAY-Where do we go from here?  In searching different sites some use 'lite'/'lean'/'light'/etc.  For some reason I cannot find the information on the AAFCO site directly.  Does anyone have a membership?  Perhaps members can get more information.

Scratch
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Orange Fuzzball
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« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2007, 11:13:15 PM »

Another detail you need to know is that the amount of Kcal per cup isn't really a good basis of comparison, since a cup is a measurement for volume, not for weight. Depending on size and density of the kibble, one cup may hold under 3 ounces(~85 grams) to over 4 ounces (~113 grams) of food. If you can't locate the amount of Kcal per pound or kilogram on a product bag or manufacturer website, email or call to find out.

That's a good point; I should have thought of that. I tracked down these numbers for the two foods I'm considering, and they still come out pretty close. A is 3432 KCal/kg, B is 3745 KCal/kg. I used cups for my initial comparison because the recommended daily allowance is measured in cups, and then I know exactly how many calories she's getting per day.

Thanks to all for the informative links. Seems like there is definitely no shortage of opinions on this topic!
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MariManu
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« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2007, 04:48:58 AM »

Hi all. I'm new to posting here, but I've been reading Itchmo since shortly after the recalls started. Thanks to everyone for the great information - it has really helped me to find better, safer foods for my cat. I'm looking for some feedback now, and I hope you guys can give me some opinions.

Some background info to start. My cat KD is 13 years old and in relatively good health. She's a tad bit overweight, could stand to lose a pound or two, and that is the major issue right now. She's indoor only and sedentary, but does not overeat. Her weight has gone up in the last year. The vet figures it's age-related, but whatever the cause we'd both like her to lose a bit. She has been eating "reduced calorie" formulations for a long time without success, and since the recall has been on a higher quality food that is also marketed as a weight loss diet.

So the decision I'm trying to make is whether to keep her on the same food and give it more time, or to change strategies altogether. I've been doing some research, and there seems to be some debate over whether it's better to cut fat or to cut carbs. Going to a very low-carb, no grain diet isn't an option for her because she has "iffy" kidneys (her values are in the high normal to slightly high range but have remained stable for years) and I'm concerned about the amount of phosphorus in those diets.

The choice is between these two dry formulas (I'm deliberately leaving off brand names because I'm hoping to get opinions that aren't biased by who makes the food - but both of these foods have gotten good reviews here - and wet food is a whole nother thread):

Formula A (her current food - low fat strategy)
(Moisture 10%)
Protein 32%
Fat 10%
Carbs 40%
Fibre 5.5%
Phosphorus 0.95%
Calories 398/cup

Formula B (other option I'm considering - lower carb strategy)
(Moisture 10%)
Protein 36%
Fat 16%
Carbs 27%
Fibre 3.5%
Phosphorus 0.79%
Calories 393/cup

Formula B is appealing because she's been eating Formula A-type foods for so long without losing weight and the lower carbs might help; plus the phosphorus is nice and low and it's still lower in fat than many foods. My concern is that B might be too high in fat for weight loss and may not have enough fibre for an indoor cat.

So, if this were your cat, which way would you lean? Stick with A for a while and see if it works, or give B a try? I've got about a week's worth of food left before I go shopping again, not including an amount for transitioning if I decide that way.

I would not use either one of these formulas. Ditch them!

Obviously this is dry food, which is very bad for cats. Cats are NOT supposed to be eating food that has this high level of carbohydrates in it. These high carb contents in food are what is causing illnesses like FD, CRF, IBD, etc...

Vets are also very wrong about the cat's need for protein with respect to kidney issues.

www.felineoutreach.org has a number of vet articles that talk about how many vets are miseducated with respect to this issue....

I would suggest switching to a canned food with more meat in it, like low-carb no gluten Fancy Feast or better yet, raw diet. www.catnutrition.org

Dr. Hodgkins DVM book that is coming out in a few weeks goes into why these dry formulations are so bad for our cats in great detail. You will NEVER feed dry food again after reading this book.....

http://www.all-about-cats.com/your_cat.htm

I'd also suggest you take a look at: www.yourdiabeticcat.com, www.catinfo.org -- for starters...

Cats are carnivores that need meat, not rice, corn, soy and other cereals which, as we know, were the very things that got cut with melamine and other contaminants...

Also see this article:

What’s eating kitty?

Beyond tainted eats, pet food corps turn cats into diabetes-prone carb fiends

http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/2007-05-31/news_story5.php

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Orange Fuzzball
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« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2007, 10:45:11 AM »

Thanks for the links Mari. The good thing with my vet is, he'll freely admit that he's not a nutrition expert.  At first he was after me to feed Hill's prescription diets because that's what the Hill's rep told him he had to do - until I gave him a pile of research I printed out explaining why I'll never feed her that crap. Funny, he's never mentioned Hill's again.  Tongue

Personally I'd never feed Fancy Feast. Just seeing "animal by-products" in the ingredient list sends me running the other direction and trying to choke back vomit. (I've had this discussion many times with my parents, who think Fancy Feast is the best food in the world for their cat - it's frustrating but they will not budge.) I know canned foods are healthier than dry, but the problems she has with canned are a topic for another thread. For now I've gotta do one thing at a time - baby steps so as not to overwhelm her system, and the first baby step is a better dry food.

As for raw diets - I did look into this, but the phosphorus levels are way too high for her kidneys to handle. I know they work great for a lot of cats, but I'd be putting her at serious risk if I tried this.
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