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5CatMom
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« Reply #180 on: July 17, 2008, 03:55:02 AM » |
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Don, that's some good to know info, but I'm not exactly following you.
Aren't we looking for something (or things) that acts like a toxin?
5CatMom
=^..^=
You can think of it as a toxin if it helps you to understand it better that way. A fair analogy might be like something along the lines of eating a hand full of broken glass. The glass itself isn't toxic, but the glass crystals do mechanical damage once they're in the system. It's sort of like that with the melamine and cyanuric acid combination. They circulate through the body without doing any harm to speak of, but inside the kidneys, they react to form tiny, sharp crystals. In the same way the glass crystals would damage your stomach, the melamine cyanurate crystals damage the kidneys. In addition to damaging the kidneys, they can also completely block them, similar to kidney stones. The effect is multiplied in cats because cats concentrate their urine to a much greater degree than other animals. In other words, cat kidneys don't get flushed out as much as other species, so highly concentrated urine equals highly concentrated crystals. I hope that makes sense. The result is deadly enough, but it's more a situation that because of where the crystals form, they cause life threatening physical damage. Don, that's a great explanation. Thanks so much. 5CatMom =^..^ = |
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"What is man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected." Chief Seattle
"We are the caretakers of our creatures . . . the peacekeepers of our planet"
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Offly_irked
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« Reply #181 on: July 17, 2008, 03:56:50 AM » |
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If the npn existed in the product (added at their supplier) and not put in the food by the company are they required to disclose the full list of components in the ingredient label? I don't think so. See "natural" flavor, palatants, etc. Also, we know very well that they don't disclose or chose to follow rules except one that are self serving as to their current situation. Add in their myth about not having to change labels... Allowing nonprotein nitrogen in pet foods: http://itchmoforums.com/law-and-politics-about-pets/nonprotein-nitrogen-allowed-by-aafco-t4770.0.html;msg62818#msg6281816-252-075
Expression of guarantees and special requirements — Pet food and specialty pet food containing any added nonprotein nitrogen.
(1) Pet food or specialty pet food and pet food or specialty pet food supplements and concentrates containing crude protein from any form of added nonprotein nitrogen must be labeled as follows:
Crude protein, minimum . . . . . . %
This includes not more than . . . . . . % equivalent crude protein, which is not nutritionally available as protein to (species of animal for which feed is intended).
(2) Pet food or specialty pet food, premixes, concentrates or supplements containing more than one and one-quarter percent crude protein from any form of added nonprotein nitrogen must contain adequate directions for use and a prominent statement on the principal display panel, such as the following:
WARNING: This food must be used only in accordance with directions furnished on the label.
(3) In pet food and specialty pet food, nonprotein nitrogen sources defined in the Association of American Feed Control Officials official publication are acceptable sources of nutrients other than crude protein, as long as the maximum crude protein from all nonprotein nitrogen sources does not exceed one and one-quarter percent of the pet's or specialty pet's total daily ration.
[Statutory Authority: Chapters 15.53 and 34.05 RCW. 03-23-129, § 16-252-075, filed 11/19/03, effective 7/1/04.]
Who has the AAFCO publication that is referred to in #3 and can provide further info? Does the amount of cyanuric acid meet/exceed the allowed amounts? Will they claim the label myth or "misunderstanding" the % as a guideline # as they have in the Hill's/Nutro advertising issues? |
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« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 04:07:20 AM by Offy »
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Don Earl
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« Reply #182 on: July 17, 2008, 04:56:44 AM » |
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RE: "Who has the AAFCO publication that is referred to in #3 and can provide further info?"
I have the publication. In general, approved sources of NPN are those most of us are already familiar with; urea, cyanuric acid and a few others only cow farmers would care about. "If" it is added to pet food, and there's no legitimate reason for doing so, it HAS to be disclosed on the label, and it CANNOT be included as part of the protein content in the food.
As an aside....
1.25% is 12,500 PPM. The typical calculation for protein content is 6.25 times total nitrogen. Cyanuric acid is approximately 50% nitrogen. Most wet cat foods run 9-10% protein. Using the nitrogen formula to calculate the apparent protein of 1.25% cyanuric acid, it works out to just shy of 4%.
In a 156 gram can of cat food (5.5 ounces), 4.5 grams of cyanuric acid would look like the entire required protein content of the food. The last time I looked, cyanuric acid runs around 80 cents a pound. That's about 8/10ths of a penny for 4.5 grams vs. 1.44 cents for real protein from the cheapest meat and bone meal available. When you sell billions of containers of pet food every year, fractions of a penny add up. For example, half a penny on 12 billion containers of pet food works out to $60 million. Or you could get similar savings on a quarter penny on 24 billion packages, or an eighth penny on 48 billion, etc.. I seem to recall Menu Foods bragging about selling something like 80 million packages of pet food a year. At that rate of production, the 2200 PPM is just about dead on the money for a company needing to squeek out an extra $60 million to stay out of bankruptcy.
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Carol
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« Reply #183 on: July 17, 2008, 12:06:55 PM » |
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Obviously this test result has been weighing on my mind since I learned of it and one thing has come to mind is that if the CA is not "an isolated" incident in just these 3 cans (yeah right) then does the results kind of blow the whole investigation of the recall (criminal investigation) out of the water....and does the DA John Wood (I think his name is) want this info? As maybe yes the melamine came from our Chinese friends of Chem Nutra but where did this originate......and who knew about it? And I wonder now what the "new" NPN is being used?  Thinking out loud....  |
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“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” — Margaret Mead
United we stand Divided we fall....
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Arlo
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« Reply #184 on: July 17, 2008, 12:19:01 PM » |
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In general, approved sources of NPN are those most of us are already familiar with; urea, cyanuric acid and a few others only cow farmers would care about. "If" it is added to pet food, and there's no legitimate reason for doing so, it HAS to be disclosed on the label, and it CANNOT be included as part of the protein content in the food. Is this issue similar to the sodium pentobarbitol issue? It's not supposed to be there, but the FDA doesn't have the time, money, staff, inclination, (whatever excuse is in this week) to enforce this regulation. And, of course, that means we (the Americans) are partially responsible for the sick and dead pets. I'm sure they like calling the condition MARF, to try to make us forget about the C.A. that we spike feed with. |
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To insult someone we call him "bestial." For deliberate cruelty and nature, "human" might be the greater insult. ~ Isaac Asimov
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3catkidneyfailure
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« Reply #185 on: July 17, 2008, 01:17:26 PM » |
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Contact phone number for Gene Porter, US Dept. of Justice, Missouri District,
handing ChemNutra indictment, 816-426-3122
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Katie
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« Reply #186 on: July 17, 2008, 04:05:25 PM » |
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Don,
I'd be interested too, in what the amount of CA was in the food.
We suspect CA is added to inflate protein content. % Protein is a major cost factor of a product.
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Sandi K
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« Reply #187 on: July 17, 2008, 04:28:59 PM » |
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Katie, the food is being tested for specific levels, the original test was a composite and that is done to help with costs as it is very expensive. After the initial results are found then you go to levels which provides a more specific breakdown of how much and what batches it was in and that also means additional costs. I guess I am kind of surprised at the lack of interest on this. I kind of thought it was a little more info that helped to answer some questions we had at one point about the ingredients in pet food albeit it also raises questions too. But, to me, the fact that it is in PRE-recall food at all and it has been proven, is kind of important. It potentially shows that this ingredient was being brought in through another source rather than ChemNutra who right now, seems to be the only company taking the heat at least in the legal world. I dont know, I guess Im looking at this a bit differently than others might be. Perhaps folks are just burned out on the subject of tainted food, it can be exhausting and mind-boggling to keep up with all of it.  |
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Katie
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« Reply #188 on: July 17, 2008, 04:46:50 PM » |
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Sorry Don, my computer hiccuped... before finishing the reply.
Cont:
Protein content on label says: Ex. 24% but we don't know how much is CA, animal meat protein or plant based protein
CA has a pH of 4.0 I couldn't find the pH's of CA salts.
I'm guessing in QC; the companies aren't checking each batch or pkg. So now we have false amounts of protein and an additive that has a pH of 4.0. CA is ionized in an alkaline environment and forms insoluble salts. If we have less real animal protein which is known to create an acid environment. We have chemical additives (minerals, vitamins, etc.) some of which are salts? and high amounts of grains that make for an alkaline environment?
I'm wondering what unknown bound chemicals are forming and if their formation is dependent upon the animals urinary pH at the time. If a pet food company were to assume that all research literature states; dogs and cats have acid urines and the only bound insoluble salts were found in animals with alkaline urine... they'd never be creating a problem? Added to that; pet food companies add salts to act as urinary acidifiers.
Not all animals got sick, some animals were more sick than others, is it possible that the urinary pH of the animal at the time played a role in how sick an animal became or if their renal tubules got so plugged with crystals.
Maybe there is a vet tech here who knows what the allowable variance is in urinary pH. I only know with dogs it can change somewhat over the day and time of meal ingestion but my vet also wants to see the pH around 6.5 to 7.0 from day to day. Dogs are tricky - low pH and high pH lead to various crystals. I don't know if it is the same for cats.
I looked back at my dogs Urines. 2004,2005 and early 2006 it was always 7.0 Late 2006 it was 8.0 (which lead to checking for bacterial infections - negative and something we were going to keep a handle on). 2/27/06 again pH 8.0 and the strange symptoms.(during that time she was continuously on the same commercial food). Taken off her commercial food the end of March, her pH returned to 7.0 on homecooked meals (44/26/30) now she runs a pH of 6 to 6.5 on 52/23/25. This is the reason why I asked if anyone knew if urinary pH was critical to crystal formation.
It's been awhile since my Chemistry days... so I'm probably off in left field and the above is just rambling. But I still hope Nutro is suffering gastric distress!
Katie
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Katie
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« Reply #189 on: July 17, 2008, 04:55:29 PM » |
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Sandi K,
I'm interested too. Because I suspect it's been with us awhile - and I too suspect Chem Nutra isn't the only problem. It worries me and also has peaked my interest with it showing up pre- recall.
My dog survived, and I'm really happy for that; but the recall, a pet who almost didn't make it, so many that did die,the pet food company lies and cover - ups, the mistrust; it's just something I have a really hard time letting go of. It's like reading a mystery book and finding someone tore out the pages with the end. I hate being left up in the air!
Katie
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catbird
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« Reply #190 on: July 17, 2008, 05:52:53 PM » |
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From the beginning I've said that ChemNutra were just the ones who got caught. I am no longer so naive as to believe they were the only ones.
A person has only to read the posts here to know that there is stuff in a lot of pet foods that is not on the labels, and has no business being there. Lots of bad stuff.
I believe deliberate contamination was going on long before the 2007 "recall period", and continues to this day. As evidence of the former, autopsies on animals who died from the 2004 Asia recalls showed the characteristic signs of melamine/CA crystals, not aflatoxin poisoning as was first stated. (There is a thread with several links on this forum.) For the latter, look at some recent posts here or at ConsumerAffairs about pets eating food and dying.
In a way, the whole "2007 pet food recall" scandal may have been a cut-your-losses risk management scheme. Make ChemNutra the bad guys and let them take the fall. Let us all believe that once this was uncovered, the problem was fixed and all was hunky-dory again in Petfoodland.
Yeah, right. Anybody want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn?
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"When Mother Nature saw fit to remove the tail of the Manx, she left, in place of the tail, more cat." --Mary Stewart
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PFR07PS
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« Reply #191 on: July 17, 2008, 07:40:05 PM » |
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I guess I am kind of surprised at the lack of interest on this. I kind of thought it was a little more info that helped to answer some questions we had at one point about the ingredients in pet food albeit it also raises questions too. But, to me, the fact that it is in PRE-recall food at all and it has been proven, is kind of important. It potentially shows that this ingredient was being brought in through another source rather than ChemNutra
Sandi, it is important that it was detected in pre-recall food. I think most of us already believed that, even without the proof. I certainly did. My dogs were sickened in January, 2007. I did not test that brand until after the March recall. Offy's question is interesting: "Does the amount of cyanuric acid meet/exceed the allowed amounts?" A rep from the FDA told me that cyanuric acid (and melamine) was NOT approved for use as an ingredient in pet food. They also said it would be considered "adulteration" of product if used. So, if cyanuric acid is detected, I would think the FDA would be interested in this "adulteration" of product. |
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lesliek
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« Reply #192 on: July 17, 2008, 07:47:14 PM » |
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I have to agree. My brothers cat died in Nov of 2006. This proves its been there earlier than they admit. And there are still pets being sickened and killed by food today. Every answer brings us closer to knowing why and how. They can keep stonewalling us as long as they like,we aren't giving up & will eventually dig out all the answers.And thanks to the internet thingy,we can warn others too.
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"the world's most inept extortionist"
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Sandi K
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« Reply #193 on: July 17, 2008, 08:27:06 PM » |
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The FDA has been contacted.  |
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JJ
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« Reply #194 on: July 17, 2008, 08:54:59 PM » |
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Sandi I also believe as you and PFRO does that this toxic cocktail was in the food long before the recall ever came about. My last dog, god rest her soul, was proof of that but I did not have a clue at that time that the food that was so all healthy and natural was loaded with this toxic cocktail that over the years slowly was killing her. My current dog developed symptoms from Nutro in the early summer of 2006 and thankfully I caught it and took her off the food before any damage was done. So like Jack's new mom Carol, I want to know how far back this goes? Have they been doing this for the last 30 yrs, 40 yrs? And IMO believe the vets were getting a kick back on all the sick animals thrown their way by this toxic cocktail in the foods. Not all of them out there but a great majority, especially the ones who never ever said it is the food and to stop feeding it-just keep having expensive tests, have pets swallow, drink, injected medicines, pain meds up the ying yang til pet parents had bills in the stratosphere. It all ties together if you think about it. So who else besides Chem Nutra, how far back does this start and who's scheming vile mind thought this up for the almight buck and the heck with any animal living a quality life.
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'Life isn't about how to survive the storm,
But how to dance in the rain.'
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