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5CatMom
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« Reply #150 on: July 16, 2008, 03:50:32 PM » |
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So Don, what do you make of this?
UC Davis apparently believes that cyanuric acid alone (and melamine alone) aren't toxic. Not saying that I agree with their conclusion, but assuming they're correct, do you suspect that there may be another contaminant in the Nutro that's forming a lethal combo with cyanuric acid.
I'm assuming that the composite sample that was positive for CA was also negative for melamine. True or false?
Would be a good thing for Consumer Affairs to do an article on pfpsa's recent findings.
Good work, Don.
P.S. If it's helpful to anyone, I have a few cans of pre-recall/recall canned cat food, different brands. Also an unopened bag of Beneful dog kibble, and an unopened bag of Science Diet Adult Hairball cat kibble.
5CatMom
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« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 03:55:24 PM by 5CatMom »
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"What is man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected." Chief Seattle
"We are the caretakers of our creatures . . . the peacekeepers of our planet"
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Carol
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« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2008, 03:53:23 PM » |
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I wonder since CA is an approved animal feed additive that putting it in pet food to boost the protein level was being done and then the melamine happened to happen by those darn Chinese companies screwing everrything up....but from the MSDS it seems that CA is not so "not toxic: as UC Davis reported....so many questions....but this is info we need to have!
I have to say it again....thanks Don...
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“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” — Margaret Mead
United we stand Divided we fall....
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Sandi K
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« Reply #152 on: July 16, 2008, 03:58:17 PM » |
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Wow 5Cat, it would be interesting to see if any tests revealed ca in your pre-recall food too.....Im assuming its from a different company than Nutro?
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5CatMom
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« Reply #153 on: July 16, 2008, 04:03:32 PM » |
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Sandi, No, darn it. No Nutro. But maybe someone does  . 5CatMom =^..^ = |
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« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:13:53 PM by 5CatMom »
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"What is man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected." Chief Seattle
"We are the caretakers of our creatures . . . the peacekeepers of our planet"
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Carol
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« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2008, 04:03:56 PM » |
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Maybe we can start a thread for pre-recall foods---just in case....? Thank you to the pet owner who sent in the food...... I need to know the whole truth to the pet food recall of 2007. I doubt that without the help of people like us, I will ever know.....I know others want to know...and I do think that it makes a difference knowing what happened in the past so we do not allow it to happen in the future!  I am forever changed due to this....I never expected that doing something so innocent as feeding my cats could harm them...it is a horrible guilt I will take to my grave...and knowing of what health issues I have read about here and seen with Harry's tratments, i now wonder about the diet..... |
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“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” — Margaret Mead
United we stand Divided we fall....
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Carol
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« Reply #155 on: July 16, 2008, 04:11:32 PM » |
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So Don, what do you make of this?
UC Davis apparently believes that cyanuric acid alone (and melamine alone) aren't toxic. Not saying that I agree with their conclusion, but assuming they're correct, do you suspect that there may be another contaminant in the Nutro that's forming a lethal combo with cyanuric acid.
I'm assuming that the composite sample that was positive for CA was also negative for melamine. True or false?
Would be a good thing for Consumer Affairs to do an article on pfpsa's recent findings.
Good work, Don.
P.S. If it's helpful to anyone, I have a few cans of pre-recall/recall canned cat food, different brands. Also an unopened bag of Beneful dog kibble, and an unopened bag of Science Diet Adult Hairball cat kibble.
5CatMom
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http://www.pfpsa.org/news.html http://www.pfpsa.org/nutroca.pdfthe melamine was non detected.. |
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« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:13:56 PM by Carol »
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“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” — Margaret Mead
United we stand Divided we fall....
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5CatMom
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« Reply #156 on: July 16, 2008, 04:16:16 PM » |
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Carol, Thanks. I'm a bit slower than usual tonight. Too much CNBC today, I think . 5CatMom =^..^ = |
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"What is man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected." Chief Seattle
"We are the caretakers of our creatures . . . the peacekeepers of our planet"
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Sandi K
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« Reply #157 on: July 16, 2008, 04:36:44 PM » |
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Im wondering if any studies have been done to know whether the cyanuric acid would interact with medicines that a pet might be on.....just another thing to wonder about.
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5CatMom
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« Reply #158 on: July 16, 2008, 04:57:17 PM » |
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Don, that's some good to know info, but I'm not exactly following you.
Aren't we looking for something (or things) that acts like a toxin?
5CatMom
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"What is man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected." Chief Seattle
"We are the caretakers of our creatures . . . the peacekeepers of our planet"
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catbird
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« Reply #159 on: July 16, 2008, 05:09:04 PM » |
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Although I have no proof, I wonder if CA alone could damage a cat, based on what Carol posted above. They are different from other animals, extraordinarily sensitive, and can be poisoned by things that don't harm other animals at the same level.
Catbird, Im so glad Cameo refused it.
Unfortunately, Isis, Phantom, and Kalahari didn't. They ate it. |
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« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 07:02:06 AM by catbird »
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kaffe
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« Reply #160 on: July 16, 2008, 05:28:06 PM » |
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Lud... I am beyond shocked. And now, am very worried about all those commercial catfood I have fed the cats all those years ago. Head spinning.
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catbird
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« Reply #161 on: July 16, 2008, 06:01:53 PM » |
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to know what CA may be doing to our pets...
Ingestion: May cause irritation of the digestive tract. May decrease the appetite.
I wonder if this is the reason that so many cats developed digestive problems afterwards. Repeated irritation of the digestive tract. If the tissues never had a chance to heal before being assaulted again, because the cat ate the food often, it stands to reason that permanent damage could occur. |
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Offly_irked
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« Reply #162 on: July 16, 2008, 06:48:45 PM » |
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If your kidneys aren't working well ...... Define dystrophic:dystrophy, dystrophia
any of various diseases characterized by weakening or defective function of the process of nutrition, resulting in degeneration of the muscles. See also food and nutrition. — dystrophic, adj.
See also: Disease and Illness
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poor or inadequate nutrition or growth. See also disease and illness.
See also: Food and NutritionIn some older research (notes indicate Toxnet/HSDB), cyauric acid: /LABORATORY ANIMALS: Subchronic or Prechronic Exposure/ Rats/Crj: CD (SD) /were given/ isocyanuric acid by gavage from 14 days before mating to day 3 of lactation for females and 44 days for males /at/ doses 0, 10, 40, 150, 600 mg/kg/day. Isocyanuric acid indicated toxic effects at 600 mg/kg in both sexes. Excretion of reddish urine was evident. In addition, depression of body weight gain was observed in males. Urinalyses of males revealed appearance of crystals, which is considered this chemical precipitated from urine, and increases of erythrocytes and leukocytes. In hematological examination of males, significant decreases in erythrocyte counts, hemoglobin concentrations and hematocrit values were observed. In blood chemical examination of males, increases in urea nitrogen and creatinine, and a decrease of sodium were revealed. In histopathological examination, dilatation of the renal tubules, necrosis or hyperplasia of the tubular epithelium, increased basophilic tubules, neutrophilic infiltration, mineralization and fibrosis in the kidney, hyperplasia of the mucosal epithelium in the urinary bladder and vacuolization of the zona fasciculata in the adrenals were observed in both sexes. In addition, the incidence of atrophic thymus also showed a tendency for increase in females. Absolute and relative kidney weights and relative adrenal weights were increased in both sexes. NOAEL: 150 mg/kg/day LOAEL: 600 mg/kg/day. [Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development; Screening Information Data Set for Cyanuric Acid, CAS #108-80-5 p.255-256 (March 1999). Available from the Database Query page at http://www.inchem.org/pages/sids.html as of June 29, 2007 ]**PEER REVIEWED** /LABORATORY ANIMALS: Acute Exposure/ WHEN RATS & RABBITS WERE GIVEN SINGLE ORAL DOSES OF 10 G/KG NO SYMPTOMS RESULTED. WHEN GIVEN 4 ORAL DOSES OF 20 G/KG THEIR APPETITES DECREASED. /FROM TABLE/ [Clayton, G. D. and F. E. Clayton (eds.). Patty's Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology: Volume 2A, 2B, 2C: Toxicology. 3rd ed. New York: John Wiley Sons, 1981-1982., p. 2767]**PEER REVIEWED** /LABORATORY ANIMALS: Chronic Exposure or Carcinogenicity/ Daily oral admin of 30 mg/kg cyanuric acid for 6 months to guinea pigs & rats caused dystrophic changes in kidneys. No effect @ 3.0 mg/kg body weight. [CANELLI E; AMER J PUB HEALTH 64 (2): 155-62 (1974) ]**PEER REVIEWED** /LABORATORY ANIMALS: Chronic Exposure or Carcinogenicity/ S-triazinetriole, monosodium salt (99.7%) at 0, 400, 1200, 2400, 5375 mg/L or a sodium control (as in 5375 mg/L) was available in drinking water ad libitum to CD rats (50/sex/group) for 24 months. There were interim sacrifices and 6, 12 and and 18 months, 10/sex/group. Adverse effects noted as tubular nephrosis, urinary blockage with associated hematuria, cystitis, and hydronephrosis, endomyocarditis with myocardial necrosis, and reduced lifespan in 5375 mg/L males; NOEL = 2400 mg/L of drinking water (154 mg/kg, males & 266 mg/kg, females). /Monosodium Isocyanurate/ [California Environmental Protection Agency Department of Pesticide Regulation; Monosodium Isocyanurate. Summary of Toxicological Data (1987). Available from http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/toxsums/pdfs/1031.pdf as of June 5, 2007 ]**PEER REVIEWED** |
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« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 06:52:23 PM by Offy »
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Katie
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« Reply #163 on: July 16, 2008, 08:31:55 PM » |
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Don, Have you come across anything in your literature re: urine pH and melamine, cyanuric acid crystal formation http://www.efsa.europa.eu/EFSA/Statement/efsa_statement_melamine_en_rev1,0.pdfThey state: "Dependent of the pH in urine, melamine will form insoluble complexes with cyanuric acid. This could lead to crystallization and subsequent tissue injury. the weak acid cyanuric acid is likely to be ionised in an alkaline environment. As urine contains a number of monovalent and divalent ions, the formation of insoluble salts can easily occur, again resulting in crystal formation and subsequent tissue injury. These mechanisms are described for a large variety of compounds and medicinal products, explaining the differences in species sensitivity and renal and urinary tract injury. It should be noted that cats and dogs physiologically have an acid urine, rats and pigs as omnivorous species have a neutral urinary pH, and herbivorous species, like sheep,cattle and horses, have an alkaline urine." This has bothered me since last March. Remember when the study was found about the sheep that died. We have just been talking about the pet food companies adding chemicals to acidify pet urine. However my dogs while on commercial food high in grain always ran pH's of 8.0 I had never really given this alot of thought until I turned to home cooking and follow my dog around with pH paper. Now on a high protein diet she runs pH's of 6 to 6.5. So I keep wondering if pets reactions to the cyanuric acid or melamine or both are dependent upon urinary pH. I can't find any studies that were done on effects of cyanuric acid or melamine on pets where urinary pH was also performed. And, it sounds like this study and maybe all studies "assume" that dogs and cats will have an acid urine. But, I'm not sure that is the case. Seems that the urine pH is dependent upon the diet fed? Katie PS Me and my dog want to thank you again for all your hard work, I'm hoping the Nutro co. is having gastric distress over the latest findings. |
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Mandycat
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« Reply #164 on: July 16, 2008, 08:45:17 PM » |
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Just for the sake of accuracy, the last chemical noted in the Quote in Offy's post, Monosodium Isocyanurate, is not plain Cyanuric Acid. It is an entirely different chemical that combines cyanuric acid with sodium carbonate. Combining chemicals can change the whole picture as far as toxicity. http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5066408/claims.html Don, is there any way of knowing how much cyanuric acid was found in the food? Knowing that would give a little more perpective on the potential to cause a problem. The other studies in Offy's quote seem to have used very large amounts of cyanuric acid to produce the results. I believe one was 600 mg/kg and the other 4 doses of 20 g/kg. I somehow can't imagine that cats would have received anywhere near that dose. |
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« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 08:47:09 PM by Mandycat »
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