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Arabiannikki
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« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2008, 08:27:33 PM » |
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Nikki -
The articles say that metacam is approved for one-time use before surgery for cats. Is that the use in cats that you are seeing and are saying is okay? Or, is the vet prescribing it for daily use in the oral form and, if so, are you saying that you have not seen any cases of renal problems in those cats? That would seem to go against the evidence that I have seen in many articles on this subject as well as anecdotal evidence. I am not challenging you, but I would just like clarification of not seeing any problems.
Our vets are very knowledgeable and explain everything. We use it only if needed. Most surgeries you don't need nsaids just narcotics. We use it for post surgery and arthritis. In dogs, birds and exotics we use daily if needed and send it home with pet parents. For cats it depends on the patient but yes we have used it and prescribed it daily for cats and have not had any problems. Of course we do the usual blood work and if the animal is going to be on it long term we suggest blood work every three months as with any nsaid. Metacam is just another nsaid like deramaxx and rimadyl and Zubrin. There is no safe nsaid. Nsaids have always had risks and they are not 100% safe. All nsaids have the exact same risks. Alot of people think they are safe. I myself prefer the narcotics as they are about as safe as you can get. Alot safer than nsaids. |
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kaffe
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« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2008, 08:31:03 PM » |
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Arabiannikki: even if there had been no adverse effects in your vet's practice over metacam to date, I still think it is only prudent to relay what you have found out from forums like this and the numerous informative links provided here about the adverse reactions on metacam experienced by cats. No one can guarantee that the next patient your vet puts on metacam will NOT have an adverse reaction. The next cat or ferret or dog may not be so lucky.
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"A righteous man respects the life of his animal, but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel." (Prov. 12: 10)
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Old Chinese Proverb)
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Mandycat
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« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2008, 08:31:31 PM » |
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Nikki -
If the Metacam was used as stated in the product info from the FDA and there were no adverse effects, that is one thing. I think the question here is whether it is used in some other way, i.e., more than one dose for cats, and whether using it in that manner has resulted in no adverse effects even though it is not meant to be used in that way. If your vets are using more than one dose in cats, are they doing so fully aware of the FDA warnings in the product insert? I agree that there are no totally safe drugs, but truly the risk would be increased by not using them as they are intended to be used.
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Mandycat
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« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2008, 08:36:28 PM » |
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Nikki -
Our last posts crossed, so you probably answered my questions already in your last post. Except, I would still be curious as to whether your vets are giving the Metacam to cats daily with full knowledge of the product insert info. Just curious. Thanks.
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JJ
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« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2008, 08:56:43 PM » |
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SandyBeach very sorry for your loss. This should not have happened if only people read before administering an overdose of any medication to a furry family member or human member. Glad you still like your vet after all this.....
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'Life isn't about how to survive the storm,
But how to dance in the rain.'
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kaffe
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« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2008, 09:04:35 PM » |
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In one of the yahoo groups I belong to, "CompanionAnimalCareNaturally," a member wrote about her and her cat's experience with Metacam. A vet injected a single dose to her cat in ER without her knowledge - cat went into renal failure... and died. The lady sued the vet and won. She donated the money to an animal charity/sanctuary. You can read her story (and others) in the said yahoo groups.
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"A righteous man respects the life of his animal, but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel." (Prov. 12: 10)
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Old Chinese Proverb)
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Arabiannikki
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« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2008, 09:47:44 PM » |
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Arabiannikki: even if there had been no adverse effects in your vet's practice over metacam to date, I still think it is only prudent to relay what you have found out from forums like this and the numerous informative links provided here about the adverse reactions on metacam experienced by cats. No one can guarantee that the next patient your vet puts on metacam will NOT have an adverse reaction. The next cat or ferret or dog may not be so lucky.
I understand where you are coming from. I can only state what I have seen personally. We do know of adverse reactions in all animal species. That is why we always discuss any meds we want to give. we also always give the pet parent the drug insert with all the information. The same one thats posted here on the forum. Even without the information on this site we know the risks. There is not one nsaid that can't cause renal failure and liver failure. So you have to pick the one you feel is best and you have to inform the pet parents. we do that. There is nothing more we can do. We only have the drugs that are available. We do ot use incorrectly and we do the best we can. As I have said the way we use it we have not had a problem. Your right the very next animal can have a problem. Does that mean we should never use the drug? If thats the case we should not use any drug. I have way more reactions to antibiotics and steroids than pain medication. There have been numerous deaths by anesthetics. Does that mean we should not use it? As with any medication and all medications, there are no guarantees and the best any vet can do is inform the pet parents and do the tests that need to be done. There really is no other choice except no medical care at all. And even then its up to the owners. We can only use whats available to us and we can do the best we can. Some vets are better than others. Its up to the owners to do the right thing and research their vets. After that you can only hope it all works out OK. We really have limited resources when it come to pain meds. The owners want their animal out of pain and what else can we do except give them the insert and explain the possible side effects. Unfortunately death can be a side effect of some drugs. It took me 2 years to be comfortable giving my dog deramaxx. I still don't like it but she would otherwise be in extreme pain. I have to weigh the risks. I have her kidneys and liver checked every 2 months instead 3 to be on the cautious side. Thats just me. I wish more owners were like that but they are not. What else are we to do? |
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Arabiannikki
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« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2008, 10:02:22 PM » |
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Nikki -
Our last posts crossed, so you probably answered my questions already in your last post. Except, I would still be curious as to whether your vets are giving the Metacam to cats daily with full knowledge of the product insert info. Just curious. Thanks.
This might help explain the "off label" use. Many veterinary drugs are used "off label". Its common and there are no laws against it. This is a response from a veterinarian on one of the websites I visit. Metacam is commonly used in cats, even though the label says for dogs only. When a veterinary medication goes through testing to be ok'd by the FDA, they do medical trials on certain animal types. Dogs and horses tend to be the big ones that pharmaceutical companies like to get the drugs labeled for. These are the species that make up the biggest portion of who uses the medications. It costs more money to get them labeled for use in cats. The use of Metacam is considered "off-label", which is really common in veterinary medicine. Most of the medications that are used like this are regularly used in this manner, but they have not been through clinical trials, with reported results. I personally have not used oral Metacam in my cat patients, but I frequently use the injectable form. A lot of vets in my area do use it, and seem to have good success with it. Technically, your vet should have told you that this was an "off-label" use of the medication, and had you sign a release. Rules are different in each state, so I don't know if that applies to you. If you have ANY reservations or questions regarding the use of this medication in your cat, call your vet and discuss it until you are satisfied with the answers. |
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kaffe
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« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2008, 10:12:56 PM » |
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Arabiannikki: even if there had been no adverse effects in your vet's practice over metacam to date, I still think it is only prudent to relay what you have found out from forums like this and the numerous informative links provided here about the adverse reactions on metacam experienced by cats. No one can guarantee that the next patient your vet puts on metacam will NOT have an adverse reaction. The next cat or ferret or dog may not be so lucky.
I understand where you are coming from. I can only state what I have seen personally. We do know of adverse reactions in all animal species. That is why we always discuss any meds we want to give. we also always give the pet parent the drug insert with all the information. The same one thats posted here on the forum. Even without the information on this site we know the risks. There is not one nsaid that can't cause renal failure and liver failure. So you have to pick the one you feel is best and you have to inform the pet parents. we do that. There is nothing more we can do. We only have the drugs that are available. We do ot use incorrectly and we do the best we can. As I have said the way we use it we have not had a problem. Your right the very next animal can have a problem. Does that mean we should never use the drug? If thats the case we should not use any drug. I have way more reactions to antibiotics and steroids than pain medication. There have been numerous deaths by anesthetics. Does that mean we should not use it? As with any medication and all medications, there are no guarantees and the best any vet can do is inform the pet parents and do the tests that need to be done. There really is no other choice except no medical care at all. And even then its up to the owners. We can only use whats available to us and we can do the best we can. Some vets are better than others. Its up to the owners to do the right thing and research their vets. After that you can only hope it all works out OK. We really have limited resources when it come to pain meds. The owners want their animal out of pain and what else can we do except give them the insert and explain the possible side effects. Unfortunately death can be a side effect of some drugs. It took me 2 years to be comfortable giving my dog deramaxx. I still don't like it but she would otherwise be in extreme pain. I have to weigh the risks. I have her kidneys and liver checked every 2 months instead 3 to be on the cautious side. Thats just me. I wish more owners were like that but they are not. What else are we to do? Arabbiannikki: Thank you for taking so much care in explaining to me - us - where you're coming from. If as you say you are already excercising due diligence in informing pet parents of the possible detrimental effects of metacam and they still want to go ahead and use it, then yes, of course, you have done all you can. Its just that your original post gave the impression that you did not believe the first-hand reports from various pet parents here and elsewhere of adverse reactions on metacam. But I see now that you do know of the adverse effects and are not dismissing reports out of hand. |
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« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 10:16:38 PM by kaffe »
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"A righteous man respects the life of his animal, but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel." (Prov. 12: 10)
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Old Chinese Proverb)
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SandyBeach
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« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2008, 11:43:03 PM » |
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Thank you Klondike, Kaffe, Catwoods , JJ, Justme, Mandycat, Orangefuzzball. Leslie. Laurie and anyone else I may have missed who offered their condolences on my loss.. I hope I didnt miss anyone...I am just so depressed and watched my baby go through a hell most of you I pray will never see. READ all you can get your hands on and don't allow this med as I stated wayyy back...I thought he was getting codine or something not something that caused him to bleed internally (not his liver nor kidneys) he threw up blood for weeks  and I kept force feeding him, doing subq all the vet said....I just dragged his misery on.....beware this med ..check the links out I am well informed Nikki that their are no drugs with zero side effects but what you may have missed in my post is..I was NEVER told what drug he was given pre op nor 2 days later ..I thought pain med for surgery would be a narcotic..I did not sign any forms and nothing was given to me.. Had my vet told me he was giving my cat a NSAID and that it is labeled for cats as a 1 time ONLY INJECTION I would NEVER allowed him to give it a second time..I did not beg for pain relief . I was not told he gave it pre-op until much to late I would and will never allow this drug to be used on my pets and this was not an AED this was misuse by the vet of a drug clearly labeled as a 1 TIME use as an injectable in cats. It is also to be avoided in cats under 10 pounds . Are you a vet now? I see you posted you give this med....did you mean the vet you work for? Last I knew you were a vet tech....should tone of voice be missing this is not sarcasm I am wondering if you graduated from vet school since we last spoke eons ago in the forum. And to all.....you want to avoid the nightmare I still live ..avoid this med there are other meds that are safer and learn from me.....get the name of all meds pre op and post op...dont trust your vet to be informed do not allow any med until YOU research it... |
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kaffe
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« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2008, 12:17:09 AM » |
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I am going through the posts in the various yahoo help groups I belong to - looking for experiences on metacam. In CatVet group, a post dated May 14, 2006 asked whether metacam was safe - the poster's cat was prescribed this pain killer after all blood and urine tests came back indicating that the said cat was healthy as can be - except for arthritis. The same poster came back a week later (May 21, 2006) and said, "Unfortunately, I can now answer my own question..." and went on to say that her cat was in hospital for renal failure due to metacam. In Catand kittens, a post dated Feb 11, 2006 says "I will always believe that Metacam aided in the death of my dog..." In WholeCatHealth, there are several posts describing the adverse effects of metacam on their cats... one poster is the person who put up the website www.metacamkills.com because of what happened to his cat. In Catwell, Irene Villiers (veterinary homeopath) refers to an exposition of the FDA study on Metacam and cats at: www.persiancats.org under the "medical alerts" (the medical alert on the persiancats site is dated 7/17/06). I don't know if this link was posted in the posts above, but I found it very helpful: http://www.persiancats.org/nss-folder/filefolder/MetacamRisksInCats.pdfexcerpt from this link: Low Safety Margin = Higher Risks According to the manufacturer’s product sheet, Metacam has a narrow margin of safety (also known as therapeutic index) in cats, meaning that there is very little difference between a safe, effective dose and a toxic dose. Repeated doses of Metacam Oral in cats have been known to result in death, as documented in the clinical tests submitted to the FDA. [ Freedom of Information Summary for Supplemental NADA 141-219(Metacam 5 mg/mL Solution for Injection for cats), 28 October 2004 FDA Center for Veterinary Medicine See “Tolerance Study in Cats on Meloxicam”, pp. 24-26] The narrow safety margin in cats is reflected in the FDA’s Adverse Drug Experience (ADE) reports for Metacam Oral, which summarize drug side effects reported by veterinarians. Of 842 reports for dogs, 19 cases of kidney failure and no
deaths were reported. However in 320 cats, 105 cases of kidney failure, 48 deaths and 35 cases resulting in euthanasia have been reported. This clearly indicates that Metacam poses a much greater risk in cats than in dogs. [ Adverse Drug Experiences (ADE) Report, 9 June 2006 FDA Center for Veterinary Medicine
See “meloxicam oral”, pp. 48-64] THIS closes the case of Metacam for me - I will never allow it anywhere near my animals. |
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"A righteous man respects the life of his animal, but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel." (Prov. 12: 10)
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Old Chinese Proverb)
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SandyBeach
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« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2008, 12:28:45 AM » |
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kaffe
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« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2008, 12:44:27 AM » |
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Oh my goodness, Sandy... you're breaking my heart! Please do not blame yourself so... although I well know the guilt we pet parents feel when our furbaby dies from something we inadvertently did or did not do... take comfort from the thought that your kitty is no longer in pain... will never again feel pain ... and is in the green fields of everlasting bliss. Sharing with us your terrible experience will go along long way in helping prevent such another tragic occurance... I for one did not know much about metacam other than it was a NSAID given to dogs in pain... never realized that vets prescribe it for cats too and that the consequences can be lethal. I am certain that Itchmo members reading this thread will take note and put metacam on their list of "ABSOLUTE NO-NO." What you said about the vet not giving you important information about metacam seems like a common refrain running through the anecdotal reports I have been reading. One person said that his vet (a lady) told him that the Vetmedica represntative who introduced metacam in her practice did not say anything about its adverse effects on cats. That shocked me on two counts: that a medical sales rep will hide a drug's adverse effects and that a veterinarian will take his word on it! |
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 12:46:53 AM by kaffe »
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"A righteous man respects the life of his animal, but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel." (Prov. 12: 10)
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Old Chinese Proverb)
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Arabiannikki
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« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2008, 01:05:07 AM » |
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Thank you Klondike, Kaffe, Catwoods , JJ, Justme, Mandycat, Orangefuzzball. Leslie. Laurie and anyone else I may have missed who offered their condolences on my loss.. I hope I didnt miss anyone...I am just so depressed and watched my baby go through a hell most of you I pray will never see. READ all you can get your hands on and don't allow this med as I stated wayyy back...I thought he was getting codine or something not something that caused him to bleed internally (not his liver nor kidneys) he threw up blood for weeks and I kept force feeding him, doing subq all the vet said....I just dragged his misery on.....beware this med ..check the links out I am well informed Nikki that their are no drugs with zero side effects but what you may have missed in my post is..I was NEVER told what drug he was given pre op nor 2 days later ..I thought pain med for surgery would be a narcotic..I did not sign any forms and nothing was given to me.. Had my vet told me he was giving my cat a NSAID and that it is labeled for cats as a 1 time ONLY INJECTION I would NEVER allowed him to give it a second time..I did not beg for pain relief . I was not told he gave it pre-op until much to late I would and will never allow this drug to be used on my pets and this was not an AED this was misuse by the vet of a drug clearly labeled as a 1 TIME use as an injectable in cats. It is also to be avoided in cats under 10 pounds . Are you a vet now? I see you posted you give this med....did you mean the vet you work for? Last I knew you were a vet tech....should tone of voice be missing this is not sarcasm I am wondering if you graduated from vet school since we last spoke eons ago in the forum. And to all.....you want to avoid the nightmare I still live ..avoid this med there are other meds that are safer and learn from me.....get the name of all meds pre op and post op...dont trust your vet to be informed do not allow any med until YOU research it... You must have missed my post where I said that your vet messed up. It was no way your fault and the vet should have informed you what they were doing. No I haven't gone on to be a vet. I'm still a vet tech. Just doing it partly now and working mostly in the nutrition for dog food. Other than that my posts were speaking in general. |
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 01:17:14 AM by Arabiannikki »
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