Is this Jake?  What a doll.  Give him a hug from us. 

Also, please post when you get a response from the company. 

I would encouarge you to be sure you get the name of the person you speak with and document all details of your calls. You might want to mention you have pictures.   They may request a sample.  If so, you will need to send a couple of cups to them, but keep the remainder and the package in your possession. 

By the way, that recipe sounds yummy.  If he has a few days of that, he may never return to packaged food!

Donna

Carolo,

Did you just open the bag today?  Have you looked at any other kibble down in the bag?  Do you have another bag or product to feed your dog? 

We had a similar experience that our male would take a sniff and actually walk away from the feed bowl.  I tried to reason it away.  I have also posted pictures on page 14 of this thread.  Some of the chunks in our bag were quite large as shown in the photos and some were particle size, much smaller. 

As I have stated before, I encourage everyone to pay special attention to your pet.  If they refuse their feed there is a reason.  Pay attention to what your pet is telling you. 

Hopefully, someone else who feeds this brand will also reply.
Donna

Winniesmom

I’m sorry your dog has been experiencing problems.  What are her symptoms and how long has she had them? 

I would like to share some guidelines if you decide to call any pet food company regarding testing (from my experience and from others).  Maybe others will share their thoughts too.

First, you cannot simply ask if they test for toxins in general.  You should be specific and ask which toxins they test for.  Don’t be misled by anyone who says if they test for one toxin it will automatically show another toxin.  These toxins are different compounds with different molecular structures.    So, just because one of those toxins may be discovered does not mean the other will be

Second, ask where they have their analyses done (at what lab).  Some manufacturers do their own testing at their in-house lab.  Some manufacturers send the samples out for testing at a private lab.  Either way, you would need to know exactly what toxins that lab actually tests for.  For example, some labs do not test for acetaminophen and they would have to outsource that analysis to someone else who does test for it. 

Third, there has been much discussion regarding the levels of detection.  I would encourage you to ask at what level they test at. 

Last, in regard to your question on vitamins, there has been a lot of discussion regarding this on other threads.  Many companies are now beginning to realize pet owners/consumers are concerned regarding safety of supplements and thus, some are looking for domestic suppliers.  Just realize the food that is on the shelves for sale right now may have been produced a few months back. 

There are many discussions regarding home-cooking, supplements and illness on this forum.  I hope you will use the “search” option and ask questions where you see a topic of interest. 

If your dog is still displaying symptoms, you should consider visiting a vet. Just keep a close eye on the symptoms and see if there is any change in them when you switch to a new food.   

Good luck.
Donna

Well, one would only hope if a specific problem was in the human food chain it would have been dealt with much sooner than this issue has.  

This is why it is so very important not to dismiss any subclinical symptoms your pet may show.  One comment that has been prevalent in postings is referencing IBD or sensitive tummies with pets in regard to certain symptoms.  It might be easy to say the pet vomited or didn't want to eat, has a sensitive tummy and never think about it again.  But the concern with that would be if you continue to see the same symptoms over an extended period.  

I track in detail symptoms or illnesses with my pets on a calendar to see if and when they reoccur.  A friend who is a vet taught me to do that.  And this can help tremendously in diagnosis if you end up taking the pet to the vet.  

As mentioned by others, there is a transition period when changing foods for pets, but now, more than ever, we need to be ever vigilant in monitoring any symptoms with our pets and determining what the cause may be.  

Donna

That's what is great about these forums, we see there are many people who post with similar complaints and we know we are not the only one.  

I have not read much about excess Vitamin E. I'll have to check into that one.   I have referenced "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition" by Mark Morris (textbook used in vets schools).  It speaks of toxicity of Vitamin D in regard to symptoms such as weight loss, fatigue, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, dehydration, hypercalcemia, death.  

I've always heard that abrupt changes in food for a pet can cause stomach upset.  IMO, 3 wks. seems a little much.  Did you ask your vet about the continuation of symptoms for 3 weeks?  How long has your dog been on the food now and is he still experiencing symptoms?  

Quote:
mgt -- July 5, 2007  12:53:33 PM --  "Also, a friend of mine  called Natura and asked about the situation with Donnas lab test results I am going to paste it here :     "Just got off the phone with Natura Pet (Veronica) and ask her about Donna's claim
They are investigating this but have found no samples to test positive for cyanuric acid or acetamenophine.
They said it appears that her sample may have been contaminated after the fact but not by the naturapet.""

Other Quoted References to chunks:
lesliek -- July 6, 2007  03:16:35 PM  --  "My neighbor just had similar white spots on Cal Nat dry dog lamb & rice. She had saved the pieces with it,but they got wet. I did tell Vicki at Natura on the phone but no one ever called either of us back."

lesliek --  July 04, 2007, 07:40:30 PM --  "While on the phone with Vicki I told her about white in & on some of the kibble in my neighbors bag. Gave her all the info & phone #'s. Neither of us ever heard back. Also told them about the acetaminophen found in food. She said they would check into it & tell the lab. Said they were testing & backtesting for C A & that should show acet"

HD --  July 05, 2007, 07:15:37 PM --  "I have a bag with embedded items of unknown origin.  My bag expires Dec 07."

mgt -- July 03, 2007, 10:55:24 PM --  "I was feeding Innova Dry Adult, 33# bag and had an expiration date of May 08. ...... I wanted to say that my kibble looks exactly like Donnas.  Black and white tiny rock like specs....  the white seem like uncooked rice pieces and the black ones look like black rocks."

-----
It seems that my kibble was not the only bag to have the embedded chunks in it. 

I've had several people ask what it looks like. I have attached copies of the photos I sent along with the samples to the pet food company and the private laboratory. 

If anyone else has photos of their samples, please post.

Donna

I really appreciate all the comments and support.

Unfortunately, my focus was taken from the pet food situation following the last conversation I had with the pet food company on June 15.  Shortly thereafter, we received a call that my father-in-law was in need of immediate assistance as he is battling late stage cancer.  He's 550 miles away.  A day after that one of my closest friends who was battling leukemia was admitted to ICU with complications.  After eight days she lost her battle.  So the past three weeks for us have been attending to the family needs in addition to helping with my friend and her family and 2 dogs and 2 cats. 

Obviously, I am now moving the pet food issues back to priority one. 

HD,
First I would strongly encourage you to contact Natura Pet (1-800-532-7261) and advise them of what you have found in your bag of food.  To date, they have stated that my discovery regarding the product was the only one they had received for any date code.

They may ask for a sample.  You will probably need to supply 1-2 cups of product.  However, if it is a bag, keep the original bag and some of the product in your possesion.  You may at some point want to do private testing.  

My bags were coded EXP 04 11 08.  

Donna

Important Update:

I just wanted to let everyone know that I no longer anticipate receiving a call from Natura’s President, Peter Atkins, whom we had earlier conversations with regarding our analysis.  Mr. Atkins told us on June 15 they were submitting our dog food samples for analysis and he would call us the following week with the results.  To date, we have not received a call from Mr. Atkins or anyone at Natura Pet with the results of the analysis. 

About 8:40pm EST today, I received a call from an attorney at a law firm who represents Natura Pet.  Apparently, the attorney has been retained to handle matters from this point forward. 

Donna

LeslieK - "While on the phone with Vicki .....She said they were testing & backtesting for C A & that should show acet. It seems to me that if you use a lab which can't find the contaminants at the level they are in the food,you would switch labs or insist they change their test protocals."

I want to clarify something in the above statement.  Natura uses MidWest Labs (as mentioned on their website).  MidWest Labs confirmed to us on June 12 that they do NOT test for acetaminophen.   A lady at MidWest stated they would have to subcontract with an "out lab" to test for acetaminophen.  They do test for cyanuric acid, however, these two compounds are not the same and just because you may find cyanuric acid does not mean that it will identify acetaminophen.  A lab would need to have the reagents for each toxin to test for those toxins.  Thus the statement made to you on the phone by Vicki is not correct.  You would have to test for acetaminophen to find acetaminophen.  Furthermore, MidWest told me they did not see the need to add acetaminophen to their testing protocol.  

In the future if any pet food company tells you they are testing for acetaminophen, ask them what lab they use and then confirm with that lab they actually test for acetaminophen.   Also, ask what levels of detection they use in their testing.


You make a very interesting point in your assessment that a lab should adjust their testing levels (or find another lab).  There is much debate on levels of testing.  In a conversation with Natura, Mr. Atkins discussed with us the issue of levels of detection.  We had mentioned that ExperTox tested at lower levels than MidWest.  Mr. Atkins referenced a vet at UC Davis who stated that is was "impossible" to test at levels lower than 10ppm.  However, ExperTox continues to confirm to me that they stand by their analysis.  My personal concern with the debate on levels is that if something was detected at 9ppm, it could potentially be harmful, but a lab who did not test lower than 10ppm would never identify it.  

Jenny -- “when reading the blogs it is hard to sort out what is incidental problems or really factual issues” and “important that each of those people follows up with the company and documents it”

It is difficult to know when symptoms are a random occurrence and when they become something that needs attention.  The blogs contain so many comments by pet owners who have noted their pets have symptoms while feeding a specific product and when the product is changed, the symptoms disappear. 

I think it is critical to monitor symptoms when you see them reoccur, contact your vet, but document what the symptoms are, what you are feeding, when they occur and if anything causes the symptoms to go away.  My guess is if it is related to anything you will see a pattern develop. 

I believe there are many symptoms our pets have displayed that we have not really noticed as they are not “serious” issues.  However, if these symptoms continue there has to be a cause. 

Bottomline, please watch your pets.  If you see certain symptoms begin to occur on a more frequent basis, then pay close attention.   Also, share you experiences here and on other posts.  We all need to know what is going on.  Remember, there was a comment made that my complaint was the only one received -- as you have read here, you know that is not true. 

You should contact the pet food company to advise them of your concerns.  However, I would encourage you to ask the company rep if they log and track this type of information. . 

Codybear " BTW: whatever happened to the samples the Texas lab gave to the FDA to verify their tests?"

There is no mystery.  The laboratory did not release the samples to the FDA.  There is a confidentiality agreement with the laboratory and their clients.  Several clients, including me, refused to release their sample to the FDA.   We did not want the samples to leave the laboratory's possession. 

The FDA allegedly obtained one sample that tested positive for acetaminophen direct from a person.  However, they did not know the other brands the laboratory had tested. 

Donna

JJ

Thanks for sharing your story.  I hope your dog will continue to improve.  Please keep us up-to-date regarding her progress. 

Best wishes to you both.
Donna

TO MGT --

You said " I called Natura today... they told me that they are investigating the Expertox results together with Donna."

That's a really funny statement.  As you can read by my previous post, Natura has had no communication with us since June 15.  I think their statement to you is a "little" misleading. 

Thank you for sharing your story. I believe your story would dispell Mr. Atkins' theory that I am the only complaint.   

I believe I have a private email from you.  I will be contacting you soon; my apologies for the delay. 

Donna

DONNA'S RESPONSE TO PETER ATKINS --  

In regard to the recent post by a person identified as Peter Atkins I would like to clarify a few points.   First there are a few inaccuracies in the details as outlined in Mr. Atkins’ message.

1.  Paragraph #2 – Mr. Atkins states that we notified them of the analysis of the black and beige chunks in the kibble and he requested a sample be submitted to them.  

Clarification -  The first conversation notifying Mr. Atkins of the analysis results was on June 13, with a subsequent conversation on June 15.  Brian at Natura’s production facility in Nebraska had already received our sample on May 24.  We asked Mr. Atkins why the sample we submitted had not already been sent for analysis as 3 weeks had passed.  Mr. Atkins stated that apparently it had not been analyzed, he didn’t have the complete story, but in speaking with Brian at the plant he was told it was still on Brian’s desk.  

2.  Paragraph #2 – Mr. Atkins states they asked Midwest Labs to test the vitamin mineral premix and the test came back negative.  

Clarification – We are not certain what Midwest Labs tested for with the vitamin mineral premix as Midwest does not test for acetaminophen.  We confirmed this in a conversation with Midwest personnel on June 12.  More importantly, we have never been advised that results came back negative as we have had no communication with Natura since June 15.  We still do not know if Natura tested the actual sample we submitted to them or simply a sampling of the premix.  

3.  Paragraph #3 – Mr. Atkins stated we had no veterinarian collaboration regarding our pets’ illness.  

Clarification – On June 15, I explained in detail the symptoms our dogs had experienced for several months.  These symptoms were sporadic. I do not visit a vet each time our dogs eat grass or vomit.  We were trying to determine what was causing the sporadic episodes.  That included repeated calls to Natura’s customer service department asking if there were any formula changes, ingredient or supplier changes.  Each time we were told “absolutely no changes.”  At no time did any of the Natura reps ask for any personal information that would have assisted them in logging or tracking any of these calls.  However, it does not take a vet to determine that when you are feeding a product and your dogs are experiencing these symptoms and you stop feeding the product and all symptoms, including the terrible incontinence, stop, there has to be some connection to the food.

4.  Paragraph #3 – Mr. Atkins stated since I had no vet collaboration he asked me to send a copy of the test results as well as the testing protocols that were used (by ExperTox).  Mr. Atkins states that I have not responded to their calls.  

FACT – There have been absolutely NO calls from Natura Pet.  Our only conversations with Mr. Atkins occurred on June 13 and 15.  On June 15 he said he would call us with analysis results.  This never happened.  We have patiently waited for Natura’s call and would have responded immediately.

When we completed the summary of our dogs’ symptoms, Mr. Atkins told us it would be “irresponsible to try to diagnose over the phone.”  He then changed the subject and discussed several other topics before he asked us to see if we could obtain their (ExperTox’s) procedure for testing for these toxins and how they validated them.  

After reviewing our notes following this call, we decided to wait to share our analyses reports with Natura until they could provide a copy of their analyses reports to us. Per the original email from Vicki at Natura she stated they should have analysis results completed in 3-4 weeks.  Three weeks had passed at the point we contacted Mr. Atkins’ office.  

Also, like Mr. Atkins we would like to understand the testing protocols and validation methods used by their in-house lab and Midwest Labs.

5.  Paragraph #3 – Reference that our complaint is the only report received related to pet illness.

Clarification:  Several pet blogs contain discussion of others who have experienced similar issues with products from this manufacturer.  In the past few days we have been contacted by more than a few people who have detailed similar experiences.  We have encouraged them to contact the company direct and possibly submit samples for private analysis.  We have also been told that others have contacted the customer service group with little or no response.  Simply reading the Itchmo blog disputes the statement that we are the only complaint.  

Summary:
Why would Mr. Atkins state we have not responded to their calls?   As of this writing (July 4), we have received no communication from anyone at Natura Pet.  Mr. Atkins, Vicki and Brian have full contact information on file for us.  

Why did our sample sit on someone’s desk for three weeks and not be sent for analysis?  How much longer would it have sat there if we had not made contact with the President’s office?  

Why did Natura refuse our offer of pictures of the suspect product?  Why would they not want to see what we were trying to explain?  

Why would Natura state we could submit a sample “if we wanted to”?  Why would a company so committed to healthy products and quality not want a sample to test?  

Why would Mr. Atkins contact us two hours after our initial conversation to reference a news article stating the “FDA ruled out acetaminophen”?  

Why would Mr. Atkins not follow-up on his commitment to us to notify us when they received their analyses?  

We probably would not have made this information public if Natura had kept their word and communicated the results of their analysis with us.