Don, "Bombay beggar" that describes my older dog who died in late 2006. She loss 10% of her body weight, no matter how much commercial food she was given, the only change was bigger poop. She was being starved, and the vet couldn't figure out why... needless to say I have my hunches.

29 years!

Offy, the urinary pH is still bothering me. Reasons; if CA or Melamine or any other NPN is being ingested along with a variety of chemicals (vitamins, minerals, etc) we don't know what unknown chemicals are being formed in the body and when those chemicals are ready to be expelled, what is the animals urinary pH at the time. And, it's true if they keep eating the same food for months and years.....

%Protein; I wish the law would change on this. I wish the PFC and human food companies would have to list exactly what those %'s are derived from and listed on the bags,cans and boxes. I would love to see % Total Protein consisting of: x% meat, x% plant protein, etc. Makes me nuts that all these years I trusted a bag that said 26% protein was "real meat protein"!

JustMe; here in Arizona, they let it run down the street, they don't haul it away. In CT we had a small spa, that was drained into the backyard - required by the town. I've only seen pool water companies deliver water (back in CT), and the "joke" used to be where they brought it from was going to require the homeowners to use a lot of chlorine. In AZ they fill the pools with tap water.

Katie

Sandi K,

I'm interested too. Because I suspect it's been with us awhile - and I too suspect Chem Nutra isn't the only problem.  It worries me and also has peaked my interest with it showing up pre- recall.

My dog survived, and I'm really happy for that; but the recall, a pet who almost didn't make it, so many that did die,the pet food company lies and cover - ups, the mistrust; it's just something I have a really hard time letting go of. It's like reading a mystery book and finding someone tore out the pages with the end. I hate being left up in the air!

Katie

Sorry Don, my computer hiccuped... before finishing the reply.

Cont:
Protein content on label says: Ex. 24% but we don't know how much is CA, animal meat protein or plant based protein

CA has a pH of 4.0 I couldn't find the pH's of CA salts.

I'm guessing in QC; the companies aren't checking each batch or pkg. So now we have false amounts of protein and an additive that has a pH of 4.0. CA  is ionized in an alkaline environment and forms insoluble salts. If we have less real animal protein which is known to create an acid environment. We have  chemical additives (minerals, vitamins, etc.) some of which are salts? and  high amounts of grains that make for an alkaline environment?

I'm wondering what unknown bound chemicals are forming and if their formation is dependent upon the animals urinary pH at the time. If a pet food company were to assume that all research literature states; dogs and cats have acid urines and the only bound insoluble salts were found in animals with alkaline urine... they'd never be creating a problem? Added to that; pet food companies add salts to act as urinary acidifiers.

Not all animals got sick, some animals were more sick than others, is it possible that the urinary pH of the animal at the time played a role in how sick an animal became or if their renal tubules got so plugged with crystals.

Maybe there is a vet tech here who knows what the allowable variance is in urinary pH. I only know with dogs it can change somewhat over the day and time of meal ingestion but my vet also wants to see the pH around 6.5 to 7.0 from day to day. Dogs are tricky - low pH and high pH lead to various crystals. I don't know if it is the same for cats.

I looked back at my dogs Urines. 2004,2005 and early 2006 it was always 7.0  Late 2006 it was 8.0 (which lead to checking for bacterial infections - negative and something we were going to keep a handle on). 2/27/06 again pH 8.0 and the strange symptoms.(during that time she was continuously on the same commercial food). Taken off her commercial food the end of March, her pH returned to 7.0 on homecooked meals (44/26/30) now she runs a pH of 6 to 6.5 on 52/23/25.  This is the reason why I asked if anyone knew if urinary pH was critical to crystal formation.

It's been awhile since my Chemistry days... so I'm probably off in left field and the above is just rambling. But I still hope Nutro is suffering gastric distress!

Katie

Don,

I'd be interested too, in what the amount of CA was in the food.

We suspect CA is added to inflate protein content. % Protein is a major cost factor of a product.

Don,

Have you come across anything in your literature re: urine pH and melamine, cyanuric acid crystal formation

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/EFSA/Statement/efsa_statement_melamine_en_rev1,0.pdf

They state:
"Dependent of the pH in urine, melamine will form insoluble complexes with cyanuric acid. This could lead to crystallization and subsequent tissue injury. the weak acid cyanuric acid is likely to be ionised in an alkaline environment. As urine contains a number of monovalent and divalent ions, the formation of insoluble salts can easily occur, again resulting in crystal formation and subsequent tissue injury. These mechanisms are described for a large variety of compounds and medicinal products, explaining the differences in species sensitivity and renal and urinary tract injury. It should be noted that cats and dogs physiologically have an acid urine, rats and pigs as omnivorous species have a neutral urinary pH, and herbivorous species, like sheep,cattle and horses, have an alkaline urine."

This has bothered me since last March. Remember when the study was found about the sheep that died. We have just been talking about the pet food companies adding chemicals to acidify pet urine. However my dogs while on commercial food high in grain always ran pH's of 8.0  I had never really given this alot of thought until I turned to home cooking and follow my dog around with pH paper. Now on a high protein diet she runs pH's of 6 to 6.5.

So I keep wondering if pets reactions to the cyanuric acid or melamine or both are dependent upon urinary pH. I can't find any studies that were done on effects of cyanuric acid or melamine on pets where urinary pH was also performed. And, it sounds like this study and maybe all studies "assume" that dogs and cats will have an acid urine. But, I'm not sure that is the case. Seems that the urine pH is dependent upon the diet fed?

Katie

PS  Me and my dog want to thank you again for all your hard work, I'm hoping the Nutro co. is having gastric distress over the latest findings.

Don,

Re: what ingredient in dog food acidifies urine

According to the product information for EVO they state:
Sodium Phosphate   
Phosphorus is a naturally occurring substance that is important in every cell in the body. The majority of phosphorus in the body is found in the bones. The potassium and sodium salt forms of phosphorus are called phosphates.

Sodium phosphate is used to acidify the urine and lower the urinary calcium concentration. This may reduce rash and odor caused by ammonium in the urine. Sodium phosphate is also used as a phosphorus supplement to prevent and/or treat a phosphorus deficiency.http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1494


I don't know if this is true for all commercial pet food.

Katie

Don and Klondike; I can't speak for kitties - but I know many people; including myself who have given high doses of Ester C to our dogs to help with hip health (especially dysplastic hips) so I don't think that would cause kidney problems. I have never had a dog with kidney stones or kidney problems in 35 years;until the pet food recall. I know there are some breeds that are more susceptible to stone formation. Many competition dog owners, especially agility dogs, use Vitamin C for joint health. My vets have always told me that dogs will excrete unneeded vitamin C.

Parsley, sweetens the breath and provides some antioxidants. The vet nutritionist has me adding a few raw sprigs to the home cooked meals.

Katie 

I thought pet food companies added urinary acidifiers to dog food to depress the formation of Ca oxalate crystals? also aren't there breeds that are more prone?

Carol, I hadn't seen that article; thank you. It is interesting and leaves many questions - have printed it out for my vet in hopes that she can get me the full article. Maybe this could lead us to what really happened last year.

Katie

Klondike, I'm glad to hear Poco's day at the vet was a good one! Looks like good food is giving you positive numbers, same thing I found after a year of home cooking. Glad it's just colitis - we had a problem with that yesterday; Reddie decided to make a meal of mesquite beans..... so today it was a meal of white rice and chicken only!!! Colitis is a lot easier to deal with than IBD.

I could be wrong.. but I believe egg shells are pure calcium carbonate. Problem with egg shells, you need to grind them to a really fine powder. The shells are very hard and can irritate or even scratch the intestinal wall. I found that out! Some people swear by the brand NOW calcium - which can be purchased in various forms.

Curious why she is in favor of lamb over buffalo?

Again, glad Poco is doing well.

Katie

Looks like it has a patent (from freepatentsonline.com); to make dogs smell better...

Title:Method for reducing malodor with Bacillus subtilis Kubota Document Type and Number:United States Patent 6051219
Abstract:The present invention relates to an oral composition containing Bacillus subtilis Kubota FERM BP-5847 for animals.
The oral administration of Bacillus subtilis Kubota FERM BP-5847 can deodorize feces and urine from livestock, poultry, fish and the like and also suppresses the occurrence of diarrhea.


Katie

Jewel, great news about Champ! glad the Pred. is doing the trick. Champ; you keep barking, loudly!!

Katie

Klondike,
I'm glad Poco is doing better; I know what you mean about the fruit - I've learned with mine, careful how much banana or how much apple skin. Home cooking can be a challenge! I have also noticed with home cooking, less eye goop. Hopefully your vet will have some ideas, geriatric dogs can be a challenge but they are the best!

Land of Pure Gold is a really good site - glad you posted it. Here is another one with lots of information:http://www.smilingblueskies.com/    Again goldens, but unfortunately they have the highest cancer rates. Suzi provides a wealth of info. on cancers, diets, cancer studies etc.

Katie

Klondike, hope Poco is still doing better.

No, we didn't try meds with the Cushings. He had so many medical issues around the time he was confirmed with Cushings we didn't want to overload him with meds. He had occasional gastric issues even as a pup, but he was a dog that stressed easily. He did well on a food and all of a sudden for some unknown reason, it would disagree with him. And, it didn't help that he consumed 30 lbs of alfatoxin contaminated Nature's Receipe! His stomach upsets were really random until he reached about 10 years of age. Than it became more constant. When he was diagnosed with Cushings at 11; it seemed like a weekly event. One time he ended up spending two days at the hospital on IV's because he got so dehydrated in 24hrs. He had xrays all the time! We never saw any growths on his intestine but the xrays always showed an inflammed intestine. One time they gave him a barium xray and that really soothed his tummy! Originally the vet had me giving him Pepcid(she originally thought acid problems) - but that did nothing. Than we tried a couse of Baytril and Flagyl - took the Baytril away and went with Flagyl for three weeks. No gastric/intestinal issues and he gained weight (at the time he was eating Calif Nat Lamb and Rice, we tried to give him food with the least amount of ingredients ). We decided not to put him through any biopsies or further testing; he seemed to fit the criteria of IBD (symptoms, food problems, what the stool looked like, etc.) and went from there. If he had a bad night, we started the Flagyl, went back to three days of Chicken and Rice and would wean him back to his commercial food.  The Flagyl worked great for him and it seemed with its use, we had longer times between episodes. I guess there are some dogs who take Flagyl continuously. He was my "heart dog"; he lived to be 14;it was hemangiosarcoma that took his life.

Another thing I have heard people using is Tylan. For my dog it didn't do anything but you might ask your vet about it. I've had friends who used it with great success.

Pork liver - I never dreamed a vitamin could cause such problems! One day I decided maybe I should give my geriatric dogs a vitamin to keep them healthy - they spit them out and he snarfed them all up!  Within hours - bad reaction.

You said about the capsule - maybe the coating is something that Poco is reacting to. I've learned what maybe hypoallergenic for some is not for all. Calcium - does he react to all forms of calcium?

I don't know if you have looked at the Yahoo groups for Cushings and IBD? both are owned by knowledgable people and many doctors are also on the lists. I found them really helpful in knowing how the diseases were being treated across the country and the world. And, gave me some information to discuss with my own vet.

If Poco does well on the commercial raw - seems like a good thing to stick with.

Katie

Klondike, thanks for the article. The really scary part about this; the number of people who could have gotten sick and died.  It only goes to show how corporations have gotten so greedy they have forgotten the ramifications of bad decision making on the human race.

Katie

What I would really like to tell them - can't be printed, but:

However, I would like them to know: if it weren't for the bloggers - my dog could have died. Since they won't tell us about recalled foods, new ingredient formulaes, problems with raw ingredients, lack of quality assurance and control, lack of documentation, poor product handling, etc. We bloggers reply upon each other for information.

What I would like:
Concern for our domestic animals, instead of worrying about their bottom line at our expense.
Quality assurance and controls that exceed the industry standard.
Openess re: ingredients (where they come from, how they are processed) and what methods are used to insure they are not contaminated or appearing in pet foods in excess amounts
Laboratory testing of raw ingredients and finished product for contaminants not just % of protein,carbs,fats.
Consumer Hot Lines that provide accurate and timely information
Immediate National alerts for product problems both on TV and in print

Until the PFC's make me feel that my confidence in them and their product  is more important to the growth of their business than how they can make a buck at my expense; I'll continue to home cook.

Katie