Thanks for all the positive comments!!!

We think that they are Blue Tick Healer and Border Collie mixes -- maybe someother stuff thrown in.  Both Mom and Dad look like Big Guy -- but Fluffer-Nutter looks a bit like grandma though different color but Dark Brown has grandmas coloring -- I think it's all family genetics but I think it's possible that they could have different dads.

I've read that it's not a good idea to keep more than one dog from a litter but it worked fine for us!  They're great dogs, listen pretty well though they bark too much (at times).  They're exceedingly happy and friendly.  They brighten up every one of my days!

JustMe & MarySmith:  A link from my site to here?  Yes - that can be made to happen...........  I do have some reluctance though...  I don't want others to have the same experience I encountered here.  I would be concerned that someone might say something that runs counter, or is thought to run counter,  to concerns and experiences expressed here by some forum members.

As far as a family goes, this one has not exactly welcomed me with open arms.  In my experience - most family type organizations do not have initiation type rites and are a bit more open to new comers -- but I hasten to add that my experiences are limited.  I will move slowly and cautiously as I continue to enter this particular family.

"Once bitten - twice shy" -- sort of thing.

Posting in other threads: -- Catbird is exactly right in that each of us have different capacities to handle grief of others.  I find the most difficult part of putting my newsletter together is the constant daily barrage of news feeds that tell of toutured, starving, abused and maimed animals.  I find myself to be a bit too much empathetic and often these stories stun me into saddness and sorrow and it makes it difficult for me to move forward and accomplish things.

Unfortunately, my time is also fragmented and I do not have the same "screen time" from day to day.  One day I might be in front of my machine all day while the next two days I might have barely enough time to check emails.  I will make comments if I believe I have something of value to add to threads of my choosing.  The link to the thread on the Consumer Union DOES look interesting but I haven't the time right now to read through it. I do appreciate the link though! 

Nutro:  check out these "news" feeds that I just received:

http://your-holistic-life.blogspot.com/2008/06/discover-why-nutro-is-thought-to-be.html
http://iggyworld.com/2008/06/discover-why-nutro-is-thought-to-be-the-best-dog-foods-for-pets/
http://www.petshow.co.za/?p=38
http://2dpodcast.com/pets/find-out-whether-nutro-dog-foods-are-the-best-choice-for-pets-8306.html
http://www.petsitehq.com/pets-and-animals/find-out-whether-nutro-dog-foods-are-the-best-choice-for-pets/
http://www.alldogsleadtobone.com/dog-tips/discover-why-nutro-is-thought-to-be-the-best-dog-foods-for-pets/
http://www.aflondia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2133&Itemid=128
http://cat-supplies.blogspot.com/2008/06/nutro-natural-choice-complete-care.html

These all came the same day and I'm very sure there are many more than what my news-feed bots found.

For my purposes - it doesn't matter if it's the marketing, PR, advertising, promotion, outreach, education or what-have-you department.  It's the public face of the company to the masses.

I've heard from a number of rescue sites that they get donations from PFCs.  It's, of course, a very worthwile cause but at the same time, it's generally close dated food that company would take a loss on.  This way, they donate it - take a deduction for it's value rather than a loss AND they get good publicity AND potential long term customers.  Rescue groups are generally too cash poor to refuse.  It's a choice of feed the animals or not feed the animals.  I think that most would feed "Ol' Roy" if that is what is donated to them.

All the links I posted except one are written by the same person.  This is done either to get their name "out there" or is a product of the Nutro PR (marketing - outreach - advertising - deception) department.  The last one looks like a paid advertising piece -- many companies will encourage you to write (blog) about their products and if someone visits their site from that blog - they get a few cents.

Just Me & Mary Smith:  I posted pics of my pups in the den.   None are sick right now (had a cancer scare last year) but they're aging & right now we're in a celebrating life mode and avoiding (blocking, ducking, hiding from...) memorial topics.  Actually, a number of friends lost their dogs with-in the last year so we've spent quite a bit of time in that relm.

My newsletter isn't a forum.  It is e-mailed twice a month.  I started the blog in September so that we can have an on-line presence and so that I can easily reference folks back to previous articles.  Not many folks (hardly any) post comments and the ones that do post are often quite emotive.  I do however get little two word or one sentence e-mail replies such as, "Didn't know that", "Good Issue", and stuff like that.  We had a good response when we had a contest a few months ago so I know folks are reading it - they're just not forum or commenting type folks I guess.

The name of the newsletter is The Dog Den Digest and can be reached at www.dogdendigest.com.  There are links to the blog and a sample issue in the upper left.  If anyone should actually visit the blog and read some stuff - please be nice in any comments.  Our opinions are always growing and changing as we discover new information.  --Do note -  I'm not soliciting for the newsletter.  I think it covers a different niche than what more knowledgeable involved forum type folks would find of interest.  It's very basic, not scientific, at times (okay - lots of times) - opinionated - and I'm hoping to maintain all that.

Sandi K:  It's been my observation that when a group "chooses" a product - it's often because the product is offered for free or a greatly reduced price.  For cost-conscious animal groups and organizations it's an offer that's hard to refuse.

This is all just typical endorsement PR but it works well.  Look at this promotion Pedigree did back in 2005:  http://www.doggienews.com/2005/02/pedigree-dog-food-gives-away-free-chow.htm   

It's GREAT PR -- a noble cause and gets the folks hooked on their food and creates loyalty at the same time.  As one comment said:  Too bad it's from Pedigree.

Good PR works.  The hero dog thing is a very good PR campaign!  But dangerous for them too -- because if it's proven that their food is tainted  -- then they would be poisoning these hero dogs.....  No company would want to face the fallout from that.

Menusux:  I'm finding this industry in-fighting strangely facinating.............

  Big Guy Brown Dawg

   Dark Brown Dawg

    Fluffer-Nutter

Hi All,

Here's my current family - we're all pretty close!  My gal also has 2 dogs so we have quite the pack.

Believe it or not - my three are brother and sisters - all from the same litter!  They'll turn 11 this coming Dec. 26th.

I have a friend who was not into fixing his dogs (this has changed) and wanted to know if I would care for his pregnant pup since it was very cold up in the mountains at his place.  Sure - no problem, I said.

I watched all being born except the first two.  When the litter reached five and a half hour passed, I called my friend to tell him he now had five more dogs.  As I was talking to him, another pup started being born. Then another.  There were 9 total.

I swore I would not keep any of the pups (I already had three cats).  But these three pups wormed their way into my heart.

When they were about 1.5 years old, Dark Brown Dawg came down with a case of Valley Fever -- a fungal infection that is widspread in the Southwest Deserts and affects both people and animals.  It's often fatal and it takes a while to fight it.  Our fight lasted over six months, cost a couple thousand and there were many times I didn't think she'd make it through the night.  A very nerve-racking six months.

It was this disease that caused me to look at increasing the quality of the food I was feeding them.  I always bought natural and organic foods for myself but I fed them whatever was on sale at the supermarket.  Spending a couple of afternoons at Petco, reading all the literature and ingredients of all the foods and then searching the net - I finally decided on......Nutro (1999) -- And they stayed on it till 2005 when I wanted to increase the quality of their diet again.

Big Guy had a malignant tumor removed last year and seems to be fully recovered - although he's starting to have trouble getting up and down -- I started him on D.G.P. last week (they've been on other joint supplements for the last 4 years).

Their personalities are totally different from each other.  Dark Brown is the Alpha female, Fluffer-nutter is my cuddler & little angel and Big Guy is a total goof-ball.  They're great fun!

DonnaC:  Poor choice of words on my part.  Should have been:  "Yes, I can see how my comments can appear contradictory and confused".

I absolutely agree with everything you're saying!

Just to be clear:  I'm not trying to change any opinions here.  I came to this site because after reading it for a long time, I wanted to learn more from people I believe know a heck of a lot more than me on this topic.  As I've said - I'm learning.

Nor did I expect to be writing this much here:  I probably should have explained more of what my newsletter was about before I posted my opinion piece -- actually - I probably should have never posted it here -- I never expected the backlash -- took me totally by surprise.  I'm just responding to comments now - trying to backtrack and clarify me intentions and my writing- - I'm not trying to argue or convince anyone here of anything.

I'm still a newbie in many way in this field but I know more than many of my readers.

Here's what I'm encountering (as an example):  On Sunday, I was talking with a relative who believes that many of her last dogs problems (who died in 2002) were caused by tainted food (a high-end premium food).  What is she feeding her current dog???:  Nutro.  I talked with her for an hour about it but could not convince her there was anything wrong.  She would not check out CA. "just a bunch of disgruntled people" she said.  Total denial.

She used to make her own food for her dogs (for the last 2 years of her pups life after it got ill but she feels that he never recovered and the tainted food was the start of his problems) yet thinks that packaged food is better!!!

This is a highly educated women - degreed in nutrition and alternative nutrition - even was on a regular radio show as a nutrition expert (back in the late 80's - early 90's).  She TRUSTS Nutro (as I once did too).  Arrrggghhh......

I'll eventually convince her but it will take more time.

Today - a few hours ago:  Over at a friends house playing ball with their pup in the back yard.  A worker comes over to me (they're doing a remodeling) and starts talking about dogs because he used to have one just like this.  Young dude - probably late teens - early twenties. He says he loved his dog incredibly. They never let the dog in the house -- fed him "Kibbles & Bits" his entire life -- dog lived to 12 and the guy says he was always happy and hardly ever sick.  Wants to get another dog or two real soon.  Didn't hear about the pet food recall last year. 

I gave him my card and he said he'll check out the newsletter.

These are the folks I'm trying to reach.  My place right now in the scheme of it all, is to do my bit in educating the reluctant and unknowlegeable pet owner with my rinky-dink little newsletter. 

And I do hope that eventually, there will be enough pressure to force change in these companies -- or to force them out of business by switching alliances to a different company who puts quality first (if there is one).

Lesliek:  I was really hoping I could "trust" Karma.  Looks like I'll have to do a lot more digging on the Natura and Evangers front.  Natural Balance was one of the companies that I used until my pups refused to eat any of the last bag I bought.  It was probably just that bag.  I've received some samples of their products and fed them to my pups and they ate it fine.  But at the time, I said I'd wait at least a year before I buy more which I'll probably follow through on.

I think we CAN force change in this industry.

DonnaC:  Yes, I can see how you may be confused.

There is a macro picture and a micro one.  In the Macro realm, I don't trust the industry as a whole.  The micro is a choice we make in that realm.  I trust one over another.

A different example may be: I don't trust the airline industry -- but I do occasionally fly and I choose a company that I feel comfortable with.  That comfort and trust may be imaginary but if I'm going to fly, I need to make that choice. And personally I choose by airline - not price.  I believe that the airline I choose to be the best of the worst and has better odds of getting me and my luggage to the desitination I want on time with little hassle.  Otherwise, I drive.

How much do I trust Natura?  It's a PF company so not very much.  But from what I see (and I admit that I probably don't see everything), they are at least attempting to fill the niche of quality pet food -- which is most likely an oxymoron.  But I watch for all news on them and am vigilant.

One of the reasons that I choose to feed my pup Organic dog food is because, in my imaginary world, a company that takes the time and energy to ensure organic product - may -- just may -- be a little more conscious of overall quality.

But as I tell folks, even though it's organic - it's still the stuff that would not be sold, or can't be sold, as human food (despite the possible "human grade" label - a totally unregulated term)

It's never blind trust.  We watch and smell every bag & can we open and we monitor our dogs health daily.

Hope this makes my points a little less confusing!

Petslave & DonnaC:  As I said in the rant - we're pretty much on our own.  It is the large organizations that have the money and clout to move this all along faster.  CA seems to be the only one running with this ball.  And we all need to organize to use whatever tools neccessary to get change.  It took years of work and education to force changes in the meat-packing industry at the turn of the 19th century.

Take a look at this law suit (notice Natura is named in here too - I said in the original rant - "The sad truth to all this is that we simply cannot afford to trust ANY pet food company at this point in time..." )

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202422055276

We can change this situation with Pet Food Companies.  I totally agree that they will not tell us on their own.  We can force oversight and regulation though -- it will be years of work.

Here's another article about Mars from PETA (stopping animal testing is a noble cause that I support -- I just wish that PETA put as much energy into the PF problems - because they have the money to test the foods and mount a campaign) -- Just another reason to not support any Mars company.

http://www.marscandykills.com/experiments.asp

First I thank Mandycat and Kittylyda (& JanC in a pm) for their support of my posts.  I had been feeling awful that I might have offended so many people in a forum that I deeply respect.

Second: again I'm very sorry if my post IN ANY WAY contributed to Arlo leaving this group.  From what he wrote in this thread, parts of my post was certainly misunderstood.  I'm personally relieved to hear that there were other factors involved (but sorry that his leaving caused such sadness).

Justme:  Thank you for the invitation to participate in other parts of this forum.  That's a lot nicer to hear than the "shove off" comment.  I will look at the links and see if I can contribute anything of value.

Kaffe:  I took no offense at your comment and actually agree with what you said.  However, I didn't make clear that what I wrote was an opinion piece.  In the Newsletter, it appears under a banner that says "Opinion".  My blog is entitled as the Newsletter's opinion pages.  I also termed it a rant, which is  sort of an emotive discourse.  I'll mention more about the newletter in a moment.

Sandi K:  If I had gone through the same experience that you have, I would be hating Nutro too (I'm not at the point of hating yet.  Extreme dislike bordering on disgust is more of where I'm at). 

But here's what else I'm looking at:  Nutro was aquired by Mars after the Menu affair.  Soon after, there would be a change in Management or Management style or both.  That's just the way I've seen it go when one company buys another.  I'v seen exceptions in some cases but most of the time, that's what I've seen since I've been watching (about 25 years now).

The new owners then inherits a company with problems not of their making.  The new management and/or new directives cause, at the least; anxiety, apprehension and fear, and at the most; complete chaos with lines of communications disrupted and a problematic staff - sometimes sabatoge).  Most take-overs fall somewhere inbetween.

So here's what I'm guessing could be happening:  As the new management agenda is getting implemented - suddenly reports of animals getting ill hit them.  They have no idea why.  Their lines of communications are somewhat disrupted and they're stumbling all over themselves.  They try to figure out exactly what's wrong but then can't.  But they now know it's coming from a particular plant and shut it down as they try to figure it all out.  Their PR/CS departments don't know what the hell is going on and stone-walls.  Company lawyers tell them to admit nothing.  They're hoping to fix the problem and relauch with a big promotion and - marketwise - overpower their critics.

But - wait - wait -- that's just one scenario of what could be happening.  Here's another:  The new owners and management immediately start to change the formula and/or suppliers to save money.  They skimp on quality products and oversight.  Since they also own other PF companies, they are able to share ingredients back and forth between them to make up for market fluctuations.  They screw up - know exactly why and what's wrong - shut the plant and stonewall.  Their PR/CS departments still don't know what's going on.  The rest is the same.

And you know, the truth is probably parts of each of those with something else that we haven't even thought of.  Or something else entirely perhaps.

What I want is information.  I want to know what they know.  If there is a current problem, I want to know what it is, how it happened and what is being done to correct it.  Whatever might be the cause, it is something we should then earmark for oversight and regulation to all PF companies.

Without open information, our thoughts turn to scenarios of our own making which may or may not be accurate. 

If I keep hearing more & more stories as yours, I'll probably be moved from extreme dislike to hate.

But regardless of how I may feel emotionally, I would not change my quest for information and always allow for - and hope for - open dialog between pet owners and the company.  If we can change a company for the better - I think that is a superior option than destroying it ----- (I agree that is a debatable point).

---

I found those same links when I searched the net.  If you look at them, three link back to CA and are just calling attention to the CA investigation. I've read all comments.  The fourth doesn't appear current (though I didn't search around on it).

On one of the sites ( http://cats.about.com/b/2008/04/25/nutro-pet-food-under-consumer-scrutiny.htm ), the author says exactly what I was alluding to when I said that  "there's ALWAYS some folks who have problems - even the best companies are not perfect".  Please note that I never said that those folks problems were not valid.  Quite the contary - I said that the best companies have problems - and that gives credence to the victims.  But the complaints currently are all anecdotal.

Of course that's how everything always starts - with sporatic complaints.  From a consumer advocate point of view, we need as much of these stories as possible and determine patterns and then confront the companies armed with that info.

I think that if Nutro was wise, they should openly talk with us about this situation. It was mentioned that the CEO of Innova came here to engage in open discussion (I've read that thread as it was happening).  That is someone who understands the power of the web and our new communication era.  And his companies stature goes up.

Nutro's response to the CA questions in their article (mid april) was a PR joke.  To stonewall and discredit the complaints in this day and age??  That dude should be fired.  He's clueless and should not be talking to the public.

Again, what I want is information.

And I'm discovering that you are so very right when you say where else can consumer complaints go to other than CA.  And it also makes sense that with the links to sites such as you supplied, the word would be out to go to that site.

But what bugs me is that CA covers EVERYTHING.   Don't get me wrong - That's Great!!  We owe a lot to this site for providing this service.  No - what bugs me is that this isn't being champioined by pet/animal specific organizations such as the Humane Society, ASPCA, PETA or one of the other big guns.   These are the folks with clout.  They SHOULD be looking after us too.  They should have a department to oversee things like this.  Where do they get the bulk of their donations - us -- the pet owners.  They have an obligation to oversee things like this.
And if they watch over ME and MY PETS, I would be more inclined to give to THEM.  I think CA may be a place to make a donation at this point. 

But the CA article was mid april and it's been six weeks.  I'm not aware of any follow-up at this point -- did I miss it?  I'm thinking of the animals that might be getting poisoned since then.

If we don't have a competent watchdog on the industry, we need to do this ourselves and use the web power to enable us to create change.

Oh and thanks for that heads up on Brandon Farms wet.  I missed that they were canned by Evangers.  Something else to look into...........

---

Klondike:  No- I had not seen that particular thread.  Thank-you very much!

---

---

---

I'll take a moment here to explain what I'm doing with my newsletter and where it fits in the scheme of things:

At the end of 2006 I left my job as manager of a mid-size natural food store (about $5mil, 30 employees - nothing big).  I was tired of the endless hours, the political doings and wanted more time with my dogs.  I was feeding them Wysong, Newman's Own, and Pet Guard  - - what's we carried at the store.

So when I left, I started researching other foods.  Then the Menu recall.  I started emailing friends reports that I found and my take on the situation.  Most of the people fed their dogs whatever they could find the cheapest - I'd talk to them about higher quality foods and send them links.  But I heard back from most of them that they didn't have time to read the links and could I give them a nutshell of what's happening and only the most pertinent links.

So thus was born our newsletter -- which we call a Digest (as in Readers Digest - not Animal Digest) because it's me finding stuff around the web and presenting it in a simple package.  And there's also my opinion - which is very malable given a good logical rebuttal.

The readership is very different from participants in forums.  The mailing list has grown substantially to a couple hundred or so  thus I can't say with absolute certainty but my impression is that most don't take part in or follow dog sites on the web.  They're just people with dogs.  Which is the majority of folks I meet.  Every person I meet who has a dog, I ask if they follow any dogs sites on the web, if they don't I'll hand them my card with the newsletter sign-up URL. If they do, I ask a few more questions to see how much they know and I may or may not give a card.

I, by no means pretend to be a dog expert in any way.   I'm someone who loves spending time with his animals and am actively seeking and actively learning new things everyday.

And that is exactly the purpose of the Digest: to document our journey of discovery of what is best for our dogs.  It is an ongoing conversation with our readers about what is happening in the dog world and it is written in an easy conversational manner and is never offensive  -- except to those I see as fools and idiots - such as dog abusers and puppy mill operators (and dog food companies??).  If I mean to offend, people know it.  I bend over backwards not to offend otherwise.

If I'm over the top with what I say or do, so be it.  I see the Digest filling an information niche that is mostly ignored and I've had very positive feedback.  Hey - only two people so far unsubscribed.  But I am who I am - having a good time - loving my dogs - and trying to up the doggie conscousness in my own way.  I suspect that the doggie conscousness of the participants in this thread and forum is a lot higher than mine and I deeply respect that.  As always I am open and willing to share.

I hope this helps in understanding what I'm doing

sigh......

As mentioned, it was not my intent to disrespect or even annoy anyone on this forum.

I've argued with no one, didn't call anyone names nor posted anything that is counter to views expressed here.

I've simply posted a rant that I ran in my newsletter and posted in my blog.  I actually posted it here on this forum more as a thank-you for the info you folks shared with me.  Boy howdy - did that blow up in my face!

Somehow - it was taken that I was dissing the folks here and defending or supporting Nutro.  Nothing can be further from the truth!

Please follow my line of thinking here:

I've followed the consumeraffairs letters since March.

I've alerted the readers of my newletter about this each issue since.  Only one or two items per issue from the newsletter is posted on the blog.  I had not previously posted the Nutro warning in the actual blog itself.

I've been watching news feeds and monitoring developments with Nutro since I became aware of the issues.

Most of the items either refer the reader back to the consumeraffairs site or are very positive comments about Nutro

I had planned another continuing advisement to my readers in my newsletter.

But nothing was changing  -- more letters to consumeraffairs and that's it.

It was then I asked you folks about personal experiences about Nutro.

When it was mentioned and shown that negative things can get taken off forums, I thought, "hey, it's time to put this in my blog so no one can delete it and many can find it".

There are two issues I brought up in the rant:
a: there are reports that animals are becoming sick and that some have died after eating Nutro.
b. the expected investigation into this matter does not seem to be happening

It seems that the paragraph about "hard to fault" nutro for following a corporate mind set has been taken in an entirely different way it was meant.  It's a rather sarcastic statement.  This corporate mindset is NOT a good thing.

I even outlined what a much better proper response from Nutro should be. 

I was not letting Nutro off the hook.  What I was doing- and will continued to do - is increase the awareness that there is a reported problem with Nutro that needs to be rectified.

How this has made folks here very angry is puzzling.  As mentioned a number of times, I meant no disrespect and have apoligized if it seemed that I did.  That has brought even more hostility.  What's up with that??

No  -- I have not lost an animal to the tainted food scandel.  And my heart breaks for all that have.  And I don't want to see others lose their animals because of problems with poisoned foods.

Yet I'm being villified for trying to up the consciousness of a larger group to the current problems (and I don't mean THIS group - I just posted here as an informational thing of what I was doing).

As far as I can tell, we are all on the same side here.

I came into this forum with respect for all (I had been reading and watching it for quite a while but have not contributed).

I still have that same respect -- though somehow we have this misunderstanding.

Hopefully, this helps in clearing up the misperceptions. 

I only wish for all of us to live in love and happiness with our beloved animals.

Hi all,

Kaffe:  You are so right that not all the companies are the same and certainly those such as Natura are very different (and responsive) than Nutro.  Yet independent oversite is still lacking and companies tend to protect their own interests first.  I personally know of an incident (a number of years ago - over eight) with a Solid Gold product where they changed some machinery and a lot more flax oil was dumped into the product causing illness.  It was only through dogged persistance and many phone calls that this was finally admitted.  There was no formal recall but product was sent back.  This doesn't make the company or the food "bad".  All companies - especially food companies - will have occasional quality problems for various reasons.  A few months ago, I picked up a large bag of Natural Choice Organic.  Though my pups have eaten it before with no problems, this time they wouldn't even take a bite.  Just sniffed it and walked away.  They wouldn't eat any from that bag.  Something was wrong with that bag but not neccesarily with Natural Choice (I screwed up on that one and never contacted the company).  I currently use Karma (from Natura), Natural Planet Organics and Brandon Farms Organic (from Blue Seal -hmmmm).  Currently, I like the companies and the products (and trust them) yet I will remain vigilant.  In years of working in the Natural Food industry (for people), I've seen too much "weird" stuff from reputable companies.  If companies will play games with people food, there is a good possibility that they would with dog food.  And if I didn't somewhat trust some companies - I'd be making my own dog food.


Klondike:  My observation over 30 years in the food and other retail industries, has been that companies will not be forth coming about problems due to possible legal lawsuits.  Even, if to our minds, it doesn't make sense in the long run, it is something that, I believe, most companies follow.  I've worked in the corporate world, in management, in education and in PR, and I've seen this in action.  Are there exceptions?  Probably.  Is it wide spread?  Probably not.  That's what I said in my rant, companies that turn away from this hush-hush model will reap the benefits (Mars, the current parent company of Nutro, is noted for their secrecy).

Arlo:  First - deep apologies if I offended you or wasted your time in any way.  I was not saying that the info I received from you and folks on this site was not valid or important.  And personally I believe all the comments made here and am not ignoring any. Please don't take offense where none was meant.  My comment about there are always people who will have problems was in no-way connected to the people here.  It was truely a genetic statement designed to address naysayers.    A large part of my audience for my newsletter and blog are not deeply educated on dog matters as the participants in this forum are.  I know that many are using Nutro and believe in the company.

I'm giving Nutro the benefit of the doubt.  Do they deserve this? No- probably not.  Do they get it from me - Yes - in my writings.  I had already told my readers a couple of issues ago that I would recommend switching from Nutro so my "benefit of the doubt" doesn't apply to actions.

Yes - I think the mass media is getting interested in dog matters and the menu recall stirred that up.  And while companies may not be afraid  of litigation, it is costly and they will avoid it if possible.  That is why companies "settle out of court".  And in all the settlements, there is a clause that says the victims may not talk to others about the case or settlement.  That's just standard corporate law practices.  Companies HAVE fallen due to lawsuits and bad publicity.

And yes  -- if a company admits a problem -- especially one that causes injury or death be it animal or human -- there will be a flood of lawsuits - a very large flood -- many will be frivilous and lies.

Feel sorry for Nutro??  No - not at all.  Not sure where you got that from as I don't believe I gave that impression (I'll re-read my stuff - I sometimes don't phrase things clearly)  But as I said, Nutro has an opportunity to emerge as a better company that champions their customer.  Do I think they will take this opportunity?  Probably not but I'd love to be surprised.

Finally - again I mean no disrespect to you or the others that responded to this thread.  It is all very helpful and informative.  I am not anti-Nutro or pro-Nutro.  I just want to learn the truth.  I do happen to believe the info I received here and on consumeraffairs for that matter.  It was the information received on this forum - especially from Mary - that convinced me to open my mouth about what I am seeing is a big problem with Nutro. And it was your input about threats that made me even more conscious of being "balanced" (whatever that means).  Please re-read my rant from the point of view of someone who knows little of the dog food issues.  I hope you'll see that it is a cautious, non-inflamatory exploration into this issue.  While I talk about Nutro, the main point is really how corporations, especially pet food companies, need to be more open and transparent.

I hope I cleared up some misperceptions and all your inputs does make me review my writing style for clearity.  I obviously still have a way to go.  If anyone has anymore concerns, I'm very willing to elucidate further.

Thanks again for all the replies!  I'm still trying to gather more info.  None-the-less, that hasn't stopped me from opening my mouth on my blog and in my e-mail newsletter.

I'll post here what I had to say.  It's a bit long and rambly but the current situation is just really ticking me off and a few honest answers would be nice.  Anyway  -- for what it's worth -- here's what I wrote to our readers:



What's the Deal with Nutro??


          Over the last few issues of the Digest, we've kept you informed about the situation with Nutro.  And in this issue, an update would say, "everything is the same.  More letters to consumeraffairs.com and that's about it."

           Personally, I find this situation rather alarming.  Partly because I had used Nutro for many years and recommended it to quite a few folks over the last eight years (I had switched off Nutro a year before the 2007 recalls simply to move to a higher grade (organic) food - I had no problems with Nutro).  Here we have people reporting that their animals are getting sick and some dying and the issue seems to dead-end with the letters to consumeraffairs.

           When I scour the internet, I can find many folks in forums and in their blogs all concerned with Nutro -- and they all point to the letters at CA.  But it's difficult to find mention of Nutro problems anywhere else.  Why is that?  And why haven't any of the other consumer protection or quality dog food advocates investigated this situation?  A few have indicated that they are watching the situation.  Watching the situation?  Hey, our pets may be getting poisoned and they're "watching"??

            And where's Nutro?  Why aren't they actively engaged in this conversation that seems to be growing with each passing week?  Surely this will eventually have an impact on their business. So what is going on here??

             That's really hard to say.  Nutro is a large company with many folks using their products.  If this was a massive problem, you can be sure there would be a lot more fallout.  But that's not to say that small batches couldn't be contaminated and there is always the possibility of a sicko disgruntled employee randomly messing with product.  And I would even accept the possibility of the whole thing being a disinformation campaign by a competitor.

             What is lacking is information.  There have been numerous reports of shortages of Nutro and people report having been told by "Nutro Reps" that some plants where shut down for various reasons: they're redoing their formulas to make the food taste better; they had some problems with some rice shipments, they had a bad batch of bags and are waiting for more, they're renovating their machines and for remodeling.  This could feed the perception that something is wrong with the food.

              I had been in the natural food business and other retail endeavors over the years and I'll tell you now that Reps generally know squat.  They are sales people trying to sell the food and rarely have inside info.  It makes sense to me that each Rep could have different info depending on what scuttlebutt they received from their personal grapevine.  It's not necessarily accurate.

              A few days ago, I came across a blog by a Nutro fan bitterly complaining about how she cannot find the Nutro food her dogs need for their health within a 200 mile plus radius ( http://texasdream.blogspot.com:80/2008/05/nutro-customers-beware.html  ).  This seems to be an independent roundabout corroboration of the shortage issue.   It also seems to be written by someone totally unaware of the current health rumors and is just feeling letdown by a company she relies on.

               Particularly after last years recalls, what is desperately needed in the entire industry is transparency and openness.  Here's a great opportunity for Nutro to break the mold and actively engage in this discussion.  You can bet they are aware of every comment made on the net as I'm sure they monitor it at least as I well as I do.

               This is a very difficult path for Nutro to walk.  If a scare about their food, accurate or just rumor, hits the mass media, the resulting reaction could cost the company millions and possibly even threaten their viability.  Any good corporate lawyer will tell you NOT to say anything, deal with incidents in a hush-hush way, correct whatever problems there are and move on without public comment.  This is true for ANY company.  Because of our litigious society, it's difficult to fault Nutro if they choose this legal self-preservation approach.

               When I've asked, I found quite a few folks with a very negative opinion about Nutro's customer service and their products.  Now, I find this to be true about ANY product or incident from ANY company - there's ALWAYS some folks who have problems - even the best companies are not perfect.  But in today's instant communication era, a few incidents can combine with speculation, rumor and misinformation, and quickly spin out of the control of a company's PR department.

               Here's the response I would like to hear from Nutro or ANY company in this situation:

     'We are very concerned about the reports of possible problems with some of our products.  We have or are attempting to contact each person who feels as such and will work with them individually to see if there is a connection with our product and their problem.  We are now collecting samples from around the country and are testing them.  We will publish all results on the internet as soon as we get them.  We are diligently working round the clock to investigate this matter. We believe this will show that we have a quality product.  If a problem is discovered, we will immediately report it, rectify it and keep everyone informed as to what is transpiring'.

               Corporately terse but honest, open and willing.  Companies may not yet be ready to have such a policy but the ones that eventually follow this path will find more success than they thought possible.  As more and more things become mega-this and mega-that, consumers are desperately looking for companies that are on their side. Companies, especially pet-food companies, that champion their customer will find rabidly loyal fans who would rather "fight than switch".

               Finally, speaking of those on our side, I still want to know where all our Watchdogs are??  Certainly there must be someone with clout looking into all this. Who?  Where are they??  Even more concerning is a report that I read recently that said that the FDA recently held a public meeting on Pet Food safety, and no owner/pet/animal advocate group was in attendence.  The meeting only lasted 90 minutes.

               The sad truth to all this is that we simply cannot afford to trust ANY pet food company at this point in time - or rather, as has been said in the past - "trust but verify".  Nor can we depend on others to stand vigilant watchguard over our interests as dog owners (& cat owners & critter owners, etc).  Hopefully this will change soon.  Till then, we're on our own....

                As always, we'll keep you all informed as to any developments!

well, this has really been an eye opener.  Appreciate all the input.  Interestingly, in all the newsfeeds that I monitor, the only post in this thread that showed up was Arlo's about the death threats. hmmmm....

Actually, none of the consumeraffairs posts show up in the feeds either, which is curious too.  I still have a zillion questions for Nutro - it would be helpful & nice if the company was more forthcoming....

Thanks to all who have responded so far!!


To Catbird:  First - I had used Nutro for years for three of our dogs and it seemed to be a good product.  I had encouraged quite a few people to switch to Nutro over the years from the supermarket brands they had been using.  I had switched off Nutro about a year before the recall -not because of problems with the food but because I still wanted a better food (I now feed my pups Karma, Natural Planet Organics and Brandon Farms Organics Canned).

Second: I publish a small doggie newsletter and have been alerting our readers to the possible dangers of Nutro based on the consumeraffairs letters.

Third:  I've be scouring the net and other forums for other reports on Nutro but have not found anything negative other than folks referring to the consumeraffairs website.  So I was wondering - if the food REALLY is as bad as the reports, why isn't it showing up on other websites?   I should add that I have been disgusted with the response from Nutro.

Four:  I asked on this forum because I know that the participants are intelligent and care deeply about their animals (I've been reading the forum for quite a long time but have not participated).

Finally:  I'm very disappointed with Nutro right now (and actually feel betrayed by them ) and want to get to the truth of what is happening.  I've already advised my friends and readers to switch from Nutro  -- but I don't want to damn a company without more info.

Hope this allays your suspicions -- you'll find I'll always respond honestly and openly to any other concerns you may have!

With all the negative comments about Nutro food on consumeraffairs.com, I'm wondering if any readers on this forum have had problems with the food.

Thanks for the feedback so far.  I agree that the humping dog is lame but it's part of a larger feed so I'm not sure I can individually remove it  .  Each vid shown is not necessarily a personal choice. I'll look into it.

But this is the type of feedback I find useful!  I'm interested in creating a site that is enjoyable by the majority of people viewing it. 

Hopefully, with all the vids in the different catagories on the right, everyone will find something they enjoy.

I'm even thinking of making a similar site with cats and one with horses if people respond favorably to this one!

If anyone else has feedback, I'd love to hear it!!!!