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Author Topic: EWG dog food testing reveals dangerous levels of fluoride!  (Read 2236 times)
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Mandycat
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2009, 07:58:39 PM »

This is all they found after all this time?   Angry  There isn't even any scientific evidence that it is a problem in dogs!  Using data that applies to humans is not conclusive evidence.  Humans and different animals have different means of metabolism and utilization of substances.  How do these 2 statements fit?  They seem at odds:

        "Scientists have not studied the safety of high doses of fluoride for dogs."

        "Routine exposure to excessive fluoride can predispose dogs to health problems, along with high veterinary bills, later in life."

The second statement seems like a statement not rooted in fact with any scientific basis, IMO.  If it hasn't been studied, how can it be said that this will be the result.

     I am disappointed in this report.  The original post announcing the testing said that they were going to test for "heavy metals".  I assume they did not find any?  Maybe it took so long to get this report because they had to keep testing to find "something" to warrant the solicitation of donations to do it.  In any event, without the names of the foods tested and the individual results, it is pretty useless anyway, IMO.   Undecided   I'm sure there will be others who disagree and I respect that. 


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Beyond Pissed
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2009, 08:18:16 PM »

"It was concluded that (1) there are major quantitative differences in the metabolic handling of fluoride among the five species, and that (2) Cp, Cr, and Cer values of the young adult dog, when factored for body weight, resemble those of the young adult human most closely."

http://jdr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/70/6/948

There's tons of footnote references to the article and fluorine/fluoride studies as far back as 1971 & 2005 there have been more...

http://www.thenhf.com/fluoridation_46.htm


A high-fluoride dog food can contain up to 460 parts per million of fluoride (Marks TA, J Toxicol Environ Health. 1984;14(5-6):707-14.)

As far as ""Scientists have not studied the safety of high doses of fluoride for dogs." that would also apply to zinc for dogs & cats (AAFCO, if I remember correctly extrapolated from data for swine), Calcium & Phosphorus ratios, etc.. if it's in pet food, then most likely there are no actual studies for many "safety" levels on cats/dogs within our reach. PFCs have a tendency for their feeding trial data to be a trademark secret.  They give us ranges and use one heck of a lot of data from feed/livestock animals in nurient profiles. 

Still, it's fairly axiomatic that if there aren't any studies proving toxic, then there aren't any proving safe either.

Like I quoted from one former AAFCO panel member:

http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00001.htm

"These improved procedures do not represent a perfect solution for nutrition of the individual animal, however. In the words of Quinton Rogers, DVM, PhD, one of the AAFCO panel experts, “although the AAFCO profiles are better than nothing, they provide false securities. I don't know of any studies showing their adequacies and inadequacies.” Rogers also states that some of the foods which pass AAFCO feeding trials are actually inadequate for long term nutrition, but there is no way of knowing which foods these are under present regulations (Smith, 1993)."
 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 08:50:14 PM by 5Pitas » Logged

"If the pet food does not perform in the consumer's hands, then all of the advertising on earth will not be persuasive." Dr. R. Glenn Brown. Canadian Veterinary Journal, Volume 35, in April of 1994
Mandycat
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2009, 10:25:53 PM »

       http://www.thenhf.com/fluoridation_46.htm

       "A low-fluoride commerical dog food contains 40 - 60 parts per million of fluoride.

A high-fluoride dog food can contain up to 460 parts per million of fluoride (Marks TA, J Toxicol Environ Health. 1984;14(5-6):707-14.)"

The above from the link you provided is 1984 information, and I agree that the amount of fluoride stated is very high. But are these numbers reflective of what is found in dog food in 2009?  In this study by EWG, the highest amount found was 11.2 ppm {11.2 mg/kg (2.2lb of food)}  I, too, would like to see up-to-date studies as to what a safe amount would be. 

Actually, I am not disappointed that the tests did not find the "heavy metals" that they said they were going to look for.  I am happy that they did not find them, if they did test for them.  But, I think that it would have been much more informative for them to post the results of all of the tests that they did so that it would provide assurance that those substances were NOT in the dog food in toxic amounts.  Instead, they only hyped this fluoride finding, which they cannot really prove is extremely dangerous, IMO. 

                http://www.petsfortheenvironment.org/blog/2008/04/24/i_need_your_help_to_test_pet_food_for_safety

                http://www.petsfortheenvironment.org/blog/2008/06/02/were_gonna_test_us_some_pet_food


« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 11:50:20 PM by Mandycat » Logged
Mandycat
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« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2009, 08:10:13 PM »

     When I try to evaluate a report like this, I try to determine the logic behind it, as well as mathematically calculate what it is trying to prove.  I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around the comparison in this report of what amount of fluoride the EPA allows in drinking water and the amount of fluoride found in these foods.  It isn't a logical comparison to me.  First of all, the amount that is added to drinking water varies from location to location because fluoride is a naturally occurring mineral in water that is not the same in all areas of the country.  The purpose of fluoridation is to supplement the water in those areas that do not meet a certain criteria that would prevent tooth decay in that population.  Other areas may have too much fluoride in the water, and, therefore, it is filtered at the treatment plant to remove some of it so that it does not exceed what the EPA has determined to be a maximum amount.   When deciding how much fluoride should be allowed in drinking water, the EPA also takes into account that we consume a considerable amount of it in our food.  We don't live on water alone.  As far as I can see, there is no relationship between the amount of fluoride the EPA allows in drinking water and the amount contained in these foods.
     There isn't much scientific information that firmly gives what would be a toxic dose of fluoride for dogs and cats.  However, I did find one article that mentioned it to be 2 mg/kg of body weight.  For my purposes here, I am going to use that figure because it seems reasonable given the toxic dose for humans is considered to be about 5 mg/kg of body weight.  Here is a link to an article that discusses toxic and lethal doses of fluoride in adults and children based on an amount per kg of body weight.

           http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/814774-overview

If we have a 5 kg dog (11 lbs), based on the 2 mg/kg of body weight, a toxic dose would be 10 mg.  If we take the average of the amount of fluoride found in the dog foods of 8.9 mg/kg of food and calculate how much fluoride is in 1 oz. of that food, the result is 0.25 mg/oz. of food.  (1 kg = 2.2lb;  2.2 lb = 35.2 oz;  8.9 mg divided by 35.2 oz = 0.25 mg/oz)   If that 5 kg dog consumed 8 oz. of the food in one day, he would consume a total of 2.0 mg of fluoride.  Since the toxic dose for that dog would be 10 mg, there is no way he is consuming a toxic dose of fluoride in that food.  You can work out the numbers for any size dog eating any amount of food just by plugging in the appropriate numbers.  The larger the dog, the more food the dog will eat.  But, also, the larger the dog, the larger the toxic dose is going to be if it is 2 mg/kg of body weight.  If a very small dog eats a very large bag of food all in one day, there could be a problem.  Otherwise, I am not seeing the problem with these foods. 
     I welcome comments because this is just my logical opinion based on the information I have.  I would also welcome any comments on the logic of comparing the amount of fluoride the EPA allows in drinking water with the amounts of fluoride in this food.  I can't see the connection, but maybe someone else can.
     This post is not meant to be argumentative, but rather an explanation of why I do not believe that the amounts of fluoride in these foods is dangerous.  If I am going to say that, then I have to at least present my argument to back it up.  I'll gladly admit I am wrong if someone else can come up with additional information.  I realize that the 2 mg/kg of body weight that I use here as a toxic dose is unsubstantiated except for what I read in one particular article about oral hygiene in cats and dogs and why we don't use fluoride.  It gave this number as the toxic dose.  But, it made sense when compared to the numbers given for the human toxic doses that were also based on mg/kg of body weight, and it at least gave a means of calculation that seemed reasonable.         
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Mandycat
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« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2009, 08:51:21 PM »

One more question that I wanted to bring up.  If the meat meals and bone meal in these foods supposedly result in a toxic dose of fluoride according to EWG, then what about feeding raw meat with ground bone and giving bones to dogs to chew on and eat?  Are those who do this risking harm to their dogs?  I don't think so, I am just posing it as a hypothetical question.
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Mandycat
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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2009, 11:42:40 PM »

    I dont have answer to the raw food, but when I looked at this testing a few days ago it did seem right to me , so Thank You Mandycat for the explanation and mathematics (my worst subject when in school)
                                     kathy

kathy,
     Just to clarify - did you mean to say that "it didn't seem right to me", or "it seemed right".  The rest of what you wrote seems to suggest the former, but I just want to clarify your words.  Thanks.   Wink
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Mandycat
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2009, 12:25:31 AM »

Poco,
     The article that mentions the 2 mg/kg of body weight is from the World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress 2001:

               http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/Pr05000/pr00067.htm

EXCERPT:

          "Home fluoride treatments are not recommended. The toxic dose for fluoride is 2 mg/kg and toxicity can be cumulative over several treatments. Fluoride is difficult to apply properly and also inactivates chlorhexidine."

Now we have two possible measurements from reliable sources (the truth may be somewhere in-between, who knows).   Undecided  In any case, even using your 1 mg/kg of body weight, the foods do not reach the toxic level.  But, I don't know if there might be a difference in the fluoride.  Sodium fluoride is in toothpaste.  It may be in a different form when used as a topical treatment for teeth.  Will see if I can find that info.
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Mandycat
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2009, 12:36:26 AM »

Here is a link that explains what topical fluoride is.

        http://jada.ada.org/cgi/content/full/133/4/502

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Mandycat
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2009, 01:15:23 AM »


The statement below is in regard to human toxicity, but might correlate with the other site that gives toxic doses.  This site has lots of references to studies, but I'm certainly not going to read them all!   Cheesy


           http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/sodium-fluoride.toxnet.htm


     "The estimated toxic dose is 5 to 10 mg/kg of fluoride (not
      sodium fluoride).  GI symptoms have occurred following
      ingestion of 3 to 5 mg/kg of fluoride.  Accidental
      ingestion of sodium fluoride by children usually does not
      present serious risk if the amount of fluoride ingested is
      less than 5 mg/kg.  Death has been reported following
      ingestion of 16 mg/kg of fluoride.  Fluoride toothpaste
      typically contains a maximum of 1 milligram of fluoride
      per gram of toothpaste."

I think that the fluoride in the food is probably not sodium fluoride.  I would think they would just be testing for the fluoride ion.  If you read through the VIN article, although in places it mentions cats, it also mentions dogs.  I still don't see any correlation between the EPA water levels and the food.   Undecided 
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Mandycat
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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2009, 05:12:25 PM »

    I dont have answer to the raw food, but when I looked at this testing a few days ago it did seem right to me , so Thank You Mandycat for the explanation and mathematics (my worst subject when in school)
                                     kathy

kathy,
     Just to clarify - did you mean to say that "it didn't seem right to me", or "it seemed right".  The rest of what you wrote seems to suggest the former, but I just want to clarify your words.  Thanks.   Wink

   Mandycat,
       Ooops , thanks for catching that Wink   You are correct I meant to write something didnt seem right  to me, when I saw they  used the comparison between EPA levels and food  . As  I said before , I am not good at math so appreciate the explanation and breakdown. 
                                  kathy


Thank you, Kathy.  I didn't want to misunderstand your opinion.   Smiley
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