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Author Topic: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients  (Read 11066 times)
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5CatMom
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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2009, 05:36:09 PM »

Mandycat,

Much better to ask than to hope.

If you call and ask, we could compare notes.
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lesliek
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« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2009, 05:57:08 PM »

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any QA or QC from any pfc. It does seem strange that the Australian symptoms & treatment aren't going well or following the admittedly tiny amount of knowledge of irradiation problems. I also think there is more to this. Whether the minute amounts of BHA & BHT could have caused more health problems,or possibly ethoxiquin. It does seem like something else is going on. I also have a problem with all the inconsistencies in the info Orijen/Champion has on their site,or posted. It may well be 1 of the better pf available,but the company is still playing the same old game they all do.
Slightly OT ,but I do remember 1 company doing their own meat meal during the recalls. Can't find it,does anyone remember ? Might have been Merrick but I'm not sure.
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5CatMom
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« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2009, 06:01:12 PM »

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any QA or QC from any pfc.

Bingo.  You called?

5CM
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What is man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected - - - Chief Seattle

We are the caretakers of our creatures . . . the peacekeepers of our planet
Sandi K
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« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2009, 06:11:35 PM »


     I would hope that a company has QA testing on the ingredients they get from their suppliers to be sure that they do meet their specifications.

You mean like with Nutro who found out in May of 09 that food they made beginning in Dec 08 had a serious nutrient problem?   Undecided
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Mandycat
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« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2009, 06:46:36 PM »

Quote
I don't think that a petfood company CAN make their own chicken meal, or any other kind of meal.  I think it is a product that they have to obtain from a supplier whose business it is to make those meals.

Did a pet food company say that, Mandy?  I thought from reading here that there was a pet food company in Texas that also rendered food.  Is there a law that prohibits them from using their own meals in their pet foods? 


Poco,
     I did not mean in any legal sense that a petfood company cannot make their own meals.  I was referring to the fact that it takes specialized equipment, etc. and that most petfood companies do not have that.  Therefore, it is probably more economical to obtain it from a supplier than to invest in the necessary equipment to do it themselves.  There may be petfood companies that own rendering facilities as well, but that is most likely the exception rather than the rule.  Being a rather small manufacturer, I doubt that Orijen has a rendering facility as well, and therefore, can't make their own meals.  That is what I was thinking of when I wrote the post.  I hope this makes my meaning clearer for you.     
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catbird
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« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2009, 07:32:11 PM »


Slightly OT ,but I do remember 1 company doing their own meat meal during the recalls. Can't find it,does anyone remember ? Might have been Merrick but I'm not sure.

slightly OT too--Leslie, from what has been posted on the forum earlier, it appears that Merrick owns a rendering plant that is near their pet food producing facility.  So I'm guessing it may indeed be Merrick that you are thinking about.  I'll see if I can find the thread.
ETA:  Here is one thread where that was discussed:
http://itchmoforums.com/your-problems-with-pet-food/merrick-dog-foods-t1880.0.html;msg23977#msg23977
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 08:16:14 PM by catbird » Logged

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bug
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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2009, 06:09:01 AM »

I'm still not clear on what is making folks think that the symptoms these cats are experiencing has anything to do with something other than irradiation. Can anyone expound on the thought process?

BHA and BHT metabolites can be carcinogenic, but these compounds are antioxidants. In so far as irradiation has likely had an effect on the properties of these additives, I agree that changes could have contributed to the symptoms, but they would not have had these effects on their own. We're not seeing cancer in these cats.

Champion pays their fish meal producer to preserve their product with natural antioxidants. They don't use ethoxyquin. If it's in the food, and no one has suggested that it is, it is another compound that is likely affected by irradiation as it is also an antioxidant.

The research that has been conducted on cats with regards to irradiated cat food may not have included these compounds, nor have they used the same formulation that Champion uses for Orijen, so, how can one come to the conclusion that something else is amiss?

Again, using science rather than emotion, if the problems encountered were to be attributable to these man-made antioxidants, we would be seeing problems in the non-Australian cat population who are consuming Orijen. We are not seeing reports of such a problem.
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5CatMom
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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2009, 06:52:36 AM »

Just my old big mouth opinion.

Can't use "science" and "pet food making" in the same sentence.

And you can't apply the scientific method of problem analysis to a process that is out of control.

IMO, pet food manufacturing is an out of control process 1)  because of all the cwrap we find in the food, 2) because of symptoms we observe in our pets (opened new bag, fed cat, cat died), 3) because of all the "recalls" that happen, 4) because of evasive and non-answers from pet food companies, 5) because PFCs say they don't test incoming ingredients, they "trust their suppliers".

Pet food manufacturing is not aerospace engineering, or medical research.  There are no QA/QC departments, there's no calibrated test equipment, there's no "six sigma" process analysis.

Call a PFC, any PFC.  Ask to speak with their Quality Assurance Department, and see what happens.

Pet food manufacturing is throwing together a bunch of least cost, untested cwrap from God knows where, putting it in a pretty bag, and hoping for the best.

Don't hope.  Don't assume.  Call and talk with someone who'll provide accurate information about how the company really operates.   

PS    I've been using Orijen since 2007

5CM
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« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 07:17:00 AM by 5CatMom » Logged

What is man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected - - - Chief Seattle

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bug
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RIP little angel Katey


« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2009, 07:14:38 AM »

5Cat, I do agree that this industry is out of control.

I have, however, had the opportunity to talk to several nutritionists and QC people from some of the companies I purchase my cat foods from. They have answered my detailed questions, provided me with written information and I have been satisfied with what I have received. I'm probably the exception here. I can see that there are many people here left in a quandry about many issues they've encountered -- that's for sure -- thread upon thread.

Having said all that, I still can't find any good evidence that the symptoms experienced by the Aus cats is attributable to anything more than the irradiation of the product. I think that this whole thing could be put to bed if Champion made the test results public as interpreted by an independent third party (i.e. food scientist). I don't think it would be too helpful to just post the analysis without explanation because not everyone can make heads or tails of the info. It may be the case, though, that this information is being held hostage by lawyers preparing a defense. We don't know if Champion has been served and what they are being told to do and not to do. They may be a small company, but I'm sure they have legal counsel.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 07:26:51 AM by bug » Logged

My little babies, you'll always be in my heart. Mom will see you later. Look after each other, ok?
5CatMom
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2009, 07:24:12 AM »

Bug,

Good that you called.  Wish more folks would.  Then, maybe, we'd see positive changes.

Hugs,

5CM
=^..^=
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What is man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected - - - Chief Seattle

We are the caretakers of our creatures . . . the peacekeepers of our planet
bug
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RIP little angel Katey


« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2009, 07:35:42 AM »

Thanks 5Cat -- Maybe that's the key here. I don't send email the first time I contact a company. I call and specifically ask for the company nutritionist. I explain that the questions I have are very detailed nutritional questions and that the CS rep likely could not answer my questions. Sometimes, they test me by asking what the question is anyway and once I get into something like "could you tell me the ratio of phenylalanine to tyrosine and the entire percentage inclusion in your food," they usually pass me on and then I either get things cleared up or I ask for their direct email address and send them a list of questions. The only company that I've had a problem with is Hills. They will not disclose any detailed nutritional information to the public.

I have also managed to speak directly with several QC managers and a couple of CEOs (of small companies). They have all seemed like real people to me -- not the nameless, faceless conglomerate heads that we all picture.

None of the companies that I have spoken with are 100% recall or incident-free, BUT, I have appreciated their responses and I know I can contact these people directly and get an answer (have done this numerous times). I've even received a phone call from one person who couldn't write down what they had to tell me in an email, but they disclosed something to me regardless.

I wish everyone could get some kind of satisfaction from the companies they've contacted. Maybe we'd give them a little more credit if they all treated us with respect.
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My little babies, you'll always be in my heart. Mom will see you later. Look after each other, ok?
JJ
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2009, 10:48:31 PM »


BHA and BHT metabolites can be carcinogenic, but these compounds are antioxidants. In so far as irradiation has likely had an effect on the properties of these additives, I agree that changes could have contributed to the symptoms, but they would not have had these effects on their own. We're not seeing cancer in these cats.


From what I have read BHA and BHT are preservatives that cause cancer. How would one see cancer in these cats when this just happened. Where is a web site(s) that state these are antioxidants? And with chemical testing to show reaction as antioxidants in the humans or animals system? Just confusing to state this in something that can be carcinogenic. Clarity is always appreciated bug. Thanks.
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bug
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RIP little angel Katey


« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2009, 05:30:17 AM »

From what I have read BHA and BHT are preservatives that cause cancer. How would one see cancer in these cats when this just happened. Where is a web site(s) that state these are antioxidants? And with chemical testing to show reaction as antioxidants in the humans or animals system? Just confusing to state this in something that can be carcinogenic. Clarity is always appreciated bug. Thanks.

Here you go -- sorry, should have posted source:

http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa082101a.htm
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My little babies, you'll always be in my heart. Mom will see you later. Look after each other, ok?
babysweet
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« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2009, 02:59:16 PM »

It is my understanding that every Champion ingredient is tested off site for pathogens.  The trucks are not allowed on the property until they pass muster.

Once ingredients get through the door, each individual ingredient goes through a testing procedure.  If you contact Champion, I'm sure they will outline it for you.  I had it explained to me in person, and well... the brain, she no work so well no more.  Wink

As for the USDA thing, upon re-reading the information on the website posted here on itchmo (thanks to whoever did that - my apologies, I forget!!) and speaking with Champion, it is somewhat clear that they are referring to their FRESH meats, and not their meals.  I can most certainly see how the meal information could be extrapolated (hell, I did it!) but no where do they explicitly say that their meals come from Canada.  I'm not happy about this, but I'm not as angry as I was.  I'm going to talk with them about clarity in their information.

Incidentally, I will be meeting with Champion in late September.  If anyone has any questions regarding ingredients, sources, processing, testing, etc., please PM me and I will do my very best.  Please remove the snark and/or emotion from all questions.  I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this, but I do have a working relationship with these people, and while I will not hesitate to stick my neck out and tear a strip off of someone I feel is misleading myself or my customers, it's a bit different when presenting questions from an online forum.

I will not be delving into the Australia issue, aside from attempting to ascertain their perspective on the situation.  Please do not think that I am ignoring the plights of the cats affected, but frankly I'm unlikely to get any useful information if I go in, guns blazing. 

Also, the more detailed the questions (ie the more sources provided to back up concerns or questions) the better response you will receive.

I can't guarantee I will get to everyone's question, but I can promise that I will do my best.

Off to take the puppy out for a pee.  AGAIN.   Roll Eyes
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raggiesrule
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« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2009, 04:20:04 AM »

Geez bit confused as Zea mays = maize = corn?Huh so hardly surprising that people would think it's corn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize

Does corn mean something different in north america? Edited to explain this question was based on a post that that has been removed.

Baby sweet could you also please ask, given the push to irradiate products for "safety" what Champion are doing to ensure their non fresh ingredients, eg: chicken meal, are not irradiated. Why there is no mention of US chicken meal in their product or on their website? And what other ingredients are sourced from outside Canada or are produced outside Canada even if Champion source them from another Canadian company?

Jo





« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 04:22:23 AM by raggiesrule » Logged
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