Itchmo Forums for Cats & Dogs Brought to you by Itchmo: Essential news, humor and info for cats, dogs and pet owners.
July 25, 2014, 06:04:04 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Go To Itchmo.com: Read the latest cat, dog and pet news, pet food recall info, product reviews and more — updated daily.


Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Is there such a thing as too much taurine in a feline diet?  (Read 5988 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JustMe
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 10300


My RB Angels Elvis, 1991-2010, and Twit, 2001-2010


« on: August 18, 2010, 12:37:40 PM »

Is there such a thing as "too much" taurine for cats?  Recently discussed with a vet supplementing my cats' diets with taurine and the vet said to be careful not to over supplement taurine, that taurine is an amino acid and should not be over supplemented. I was really surprised.

Does anyone have any information in this regard, links to literature and/or studies, for example?
Logged

Eventually they will understand,
Replied the glorious cat
For I will whisper into their hearts
That I am always with them
I just am....forever and ever and ever.
Poem for Cats, author unknown

"A kitten in the animal kingdom is like a rosebud in a garden", author unknown
Auntie Crazy
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 220



WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2010, 01:11:24 PM »

Wow. Talk about uninformed vets!

Taurine is water-soluble and simply can't be overdosed. Whatever the cat's body doesn't use is just flushed away.

Logged

AC & Crew: Allen, Rachel, Meghan, Spencer, Heather & Ralph

CatCentric.org
: Raw feeding, feline nutrition & related health blog, article and resource site.
mainecoonpeg
Guest
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2010, 01:17:16 PM »

JM this is one small link to information that I think is very valuable.
It was given to me by my vet.


http://petcaretips.net/cat_taurine.html


I have more info that I will dig up for you if you'd like me to.

I have taken to supplementing my cats on a daily basis with 250mg of taurine.
Taurine is damaged by the cooking process, so my feeling is that the canning of food kills the taurine benefit of the food.

When I do the home cooking, lesliek reminded me to add all supplements, including the taurine, after the cooked food has cooled.
Logged
JustMe
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 10300


My RB Angels Elvis, 1991-2010, and Twit, 2001-2010


« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2010, 01:27:31 PM »

Yes, Peg, when you get a chance, I'd appreciate.  Thanks. I've been looking at some older studies on line talking about taurine that are over my head, don't seem to be exactly what I'm looking for.

BTW, this was not my regular vet, and I was quite surprised by the statement after seeing all the previous comments on various forums.
Logged

Eventually they will understand,
Replied the glorious cat
For I will whisper into their hearts
That I am always with them
I just am....forever and ever and ever.
Poem for Cats, author unknown

"A kitten in the animal kingdom is like a rosebud in a garden", author unknown
JustMe
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 10300


My RB Angels Elvis, 1991-2010, and Twit, 2001-2010


« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2010, 01:34:35 PM »

This is one comment I found under TAURINE.

WSAVA
http://www.vin.com/vindbpub/searchpb/proceedings/pr05000/pr00119.htm
Logged

Eventually they will understand,
Replied the glorious cat
For I will whisper into their hearts
That I am always with them
I just am....forever and ever and ever.
Poem for Cats, author unknown

"A kitten in the animal kingdom is like a rosebud in a garden", author unknown
Auntie Crazy
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 220



WWW
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2010, 01:41:05 PM »

Yes, Peg, when you get a chance, I'd appreciate.  Thanks. I've been looking at some older studies on line talking about taurine that are over my head, don't seem to be exactly what I'm looking for.

BTW, this was not my regular vet, and I was quite surprised by the statement after seeing all the previous comments on various forums.

Glad to hear that, JustMe!

Peg, I look forward to seeing your info, too. I've been flipping through my library of articles and studies and, while I have tons that talk about how necessary taurine is to feline health and explain why, I haven't, as of yet, found anything that talks about potential side effects or explains why there are no side effects (which is what I always believed to be true - no side effects, 'cause the excess just leaves the body).
Logged

AC & Crew: Allen, Rachel, Meghan, Spencer, Heather & Ralph

CatCentric.org
: Raw feeding, feline nutrition & related health blog, article and resource site.
lesliek
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 10094


Trooper,Remy & Fragile


« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2010, 05:30:23 PM »

I haven't found any data on oversupplementing taurine in cats or dogs. As far as I can find, they pee it out. If using a raw diet including dark meat & organs, you shouldn't need any extra. But if freezing, cooking or commercial food is used you will. Freezing, cooking & immersion in liquids will all dilute the taurine content. If you boil any meats or organs, always include the broth/stock in the finished diet to include any water soluble amino acids,vitamins & minerals. As Peg said ,always add the vitamins,minerals & amino acids to finished cooked food AFTER its cooled. I cool the stock/broth in the fridge & add all supplements to that [in a blender or food processor] & then mix into the otherwise finished food. You will still lose some just in cold storage & reheating, but most will be undamaged.
Logged

"the world's most inept extortionist"
Auntie Crazy
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 220



WWW
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2010, 05:49:43 PM »

...If you boil any meats or organs, always include the broth/stock in the finished diet to include any water soluble amino acids,vitamins & minerals....

Just adding a tiny note here... cooking destroys and degrades taurine and most likely does the same with many/most of the nutrients in the raw food, so the broth/stock isn't going to be much different in it's nutrient profile from the meat itself.

Here's a little study that talks about taurine levels in cats fed cooked, frozen and fresh food diets: Effect of Processing on Fate of Dietary Taurine
in Cats1
and an excerpt:

Plasma taurine concentrations were consistent with those previously reported for similar dietary groups. The heat-processed commercial diet had previously failed to maintain adequate taurine concentrations although the frozen-preserved diet maintained adequate levels. The taurine concentrations in plasma of cats fed the purified control diet (1325mg taurine/kg) were normal, whereas those fed the taurine-free diet were very low.

Logged

AC & Crew: Allen, Rachel, Meghan, Spencer, Heather & Ralph

CatCentric.org
: Raw feeding, feline nutrition & related health blog, article and resource site.
JustMe
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 10300


My RB Angels Elvis, 1991-2010, and Twit, 2001-2010


« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2010, 05:57:37 PM »

I feed a cooked diet (commercial or homemade), so I'm interested in taurine supplemention. Mostly I am concerned about the feline heart, hence the taurine supplementation questions.  Have no intention of feeding raw.
Logged

Eventually they will understand,
Replied the glorious cat
For I will whisper into their hearts
That I am always with them
I just am....forever and ever and ever.
Poem for Cats, author unknown

"A kitten in the animal kingdom is like a rosebud in a garden", author unknown
lesliek
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 10094


Trooper,Remy & Fragile


« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2010, 06:10:33 PM »

Too true about the cooking depleting the nutrients. But at least if you add the liquid back, you are getting back whatever wasn't destroyed. I wish I could go completely raw ,but 2 of mine are iffy on eating it. At least with raw & homecooked I'm avoiding most of the commercial pfc problems. I also always add taurine & B vitamins in my supplements unless they eat raw daily.
JM- If concerned about heart problems, consider adding taurine, hearts or clams into the food. Also CoQ10 at 30 mg 2x daily. The hearts could be fed raw, freeze dried or cooked as a treat. Mine love rinsed canned clams as a treat too. Even if you don't want to feed raw daily, you can do raw organs on paper plates as a treat at lunch or bedtime. Easy to clean up if you serve it on paper plates too. I have an order of freeze dried hearts coming hopefully on Friday from freshisbest. I'll let you know how they like it. They are including a few bags of fines [powder left over from freeze drying] if anyone wants to try them ,pm me with your address & I'll send it to you. It would work sprinkled on top of food as an additive.
Logged

"the world's most inept extortionist"
catbird
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 8815


Never underestimate the power of crazy cat ladies!


WWW
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 03:13:57 PM »

I had a discussion with a registered dietician that I know, related to over-supplementation with water-soluble dietary essentials, such as taurine, vitamin B12, etc.  While her area of expertise is with humans, I think some of the general principles could apply to pets as well.  Here is a summary of what I learned from her:

The overwhelming majority of the time it is true that an excess of a water-soluble is just excreted and is not harmful.  However, it is theoretically possible that a massive overdose  (we are talking something like millions of times the daily requirement) could do harm because the body can't excrete it fast enough.  In a patient for whom the excretory systems do not work well (for example, with severely compromised kidney function), this would have the potential to happen at lower levels, but again, we would still probably be talking about many thousands of times the daily requirement.  It is also possible that various temporary side-effects could happen at lower levels when there is too much of a given supplement in the body; a classic example is the diarrhea many people experience with large doses of vitamin C, which is also considered to be water-soluble.

Her opinion regarding why there is so little information available on overdoses of water-solubles is that it is so unlikely to happen that it hasn't been considered worthy of study (read: it's impossible to get the funding for studying.)

So, based on this, I would think that unless a cat is fed a whole bottle of taurine at one sitting, there is little danger of anything bad happening.  The typical amounts that a person would add would not be likely to pose any problems. However, this is just my speculation and conclusion based upon what I was told.
Logged

The problem with cats is that they get the exact same look on their face whether they see a moth or an axe-murderer--Paula Poundstone
JustMe
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 10300


My RB Angels Elvis, 1991-2010, and Twit, 2001-2010


« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 04:27:42 PM »

Her opinion regarding why there is so little information available on overdoses of water-solubles is that it is so unlikely to happen that it hasn't been considered worthy of study (read: it's impossible to get the funding for studying.)


...and so few studies are done on cats as compared to dogs.

Thanks for asking the registered dietician about this issue, catbird.   If the PFCs are using taurine from China, all bets are off as to if it really is taurine or if it is undersupplemented, JMO.
Logged

Eventually they will understand,
Replied the glorious cat
For I will whisper into their hearts
That I am always with them
I just am....forever and ever and ever.
Poem for Cats, author unknown

"A kitten in the animal kingdom is like a rosebud in a garden", author unknown
Mark T
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 365



« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2010, 05:57:48 AM »

At the risk of being called uninformed  Smiley I would agree with the vet's prudent advice. Very little testing has been done on taurine and I have not come across any studies on long term dosing at high levels. Because something is water soluble and easily flushed from the body does not mean it cannot be toxic.

Quote
Wow. Talk about uninformed vets!

Taurine is water-soluble and simply can't be overdosed. Whatever the cat's body doesn't use is just flushed away.

AC, can you refer to a peer reviewed study on this?   DL methionine is also an essential, water soluble amino acid but it has been studied. At levels as low as .5gm/kg weight it causes anemia:

from page 9 of http://www.ivis.org/special_books/braund/braund22/IVIS.pdf

Methionine is an essential amino acid and nutrient, a lipotrope, and a urine acidifier [65]. It has been used as a nutritional
supplement in food animals. Accidental ingestion may lead to neurotoxicity and metabolic acidosis. The toxicity of
methionine is partially related to its metabolism to ammonia and to increased production of mercaptan-like compounds.
Toxicity is especially apparent in dogs with pre-existing liver disease. Signs include excessive salivation and vomiting,
ataxia, depression, lethargy, circling, head pressing, aimless pacing, aggression, somnolence, blindness, seizures, stupor and
coma [1]. In experimental studies, cats given DL-methionine (0.5 to 1 g/kg of body weight/day) developed severe hemolytic
anemia and excessive oxidation of hemoglobin leading to a marked increase of methemoglobin concentration and Heinzbody
formation [115]. Treatment is supportive, including emetics, activated charcoal, saline cathartic, and fluids containing
bicarbonate [1]

It may be that one day we will discover than taurine has some subtle but serious negative impact at higher doses. So erring on the side of caution I try to stay within the dosing recommendations.


Logged
Offy
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 285


« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2010, 06:51:17 AM »

I had a discussion with a registered dietician that I know, related to over-supplementation with water-soluble dietary essentials, such as taurine, vitamin B12, etc.  While her area of expertise is with humans, I think some of the general principles could apply to pets as well.  Here is a summary of what I learned from her:

The overwhelming majority of the time it is true that an excess of a water-soluble is just excreted and is not harmful.  However, it is theoretically possible that a massive overdose  (we are talking something like millions of times the daily requirement) could do harm because the body can't excrete it fast enough.  In a patient for whom the excretory systems do not work well (for example, with severely compromised kidney function), this would have the potential to happen at lower levels, but again, we would still probably be talking about many thousands of times the daily requirement.  It is also possible that various temporary side-effects could happen at lower levels when there is too much of a given supplement in the body; a classic example is the diarrhea many people experience with large doses of vitamin C, which is also considered to be water-soluble.

Her opinion regarding why there is so little information available on overdoses of water-solubles is that it is so unlikely to happen that it hasn't been considered worthy of study (read: it's impossible to get the funding for studying.)

So, based on this, I would think that unless a cat is fed a whole bottle of taurine at one sitting, there is little danger of anything bad happening.  The typical amounts that a person would add would not be likely to pose any problems. However, this is just my speculation and conclusion based upon what I was told.


Here's a study on humans that addresses kidney issues & taurine too:
http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/17/3/528

Quote
With this report we want to call attention to the risk of taurine administration to patients with renal failure and specially warn against the use of energy drinks such as Red Bull® and +Battery®, of which three cans of 33 ml/day provide 4 g of taurine (i.e. half the dose that caused excessive accumulation of taurine and neurological symptoms in our patients). Although the symptoms were relatively mild and rapidly disappeared after stopping the taurine intake, long-term risks of excessive taurine accumulation cannot be ruled out. We strongly suggest that cans or bottles of energy drinks containing taurine should have a label, which warns against their use by patients with kidney failure.

Another list of amino acids (which I had found helpful:

http://www.biblelife.org/amino.htm
Quote
TAURINE
Conditionally-Essential - Non-Proteogenic - Sulfur-Containing

Main Functions:

In the nervous system, stabilizes cell membranes, which raises the seizure threshold, and helps treat epileptic seizures.
Acts as inhibitory neurotransmitter and is as potent as Glycine and GABA.
Anti-convulsant effect is long-lasting and can be confirmed both clinically and by repeat EEG's (electroencephalograms).
Anti-oxidant. Slows down the aging process by neutralizing free radicals.
Highest concentration of Taurine is in the heart.
Reduces risk of gall stones by combining with bile acids to make them water soluble.
Involved in stabilization of heart rhythm. Loss of intracellular Taurine in the heart leads to arrhythmias.
Useful in treatment of Congestive Heart Failure (CHF).
Strengthens neutrophils (white blood cells/part of immune system) in their ability to kill bacteria.
Useful in brain injury.
Decreases cholesterol levels (along with Lysine, Carnitine, and Tryptophan).
Highly concentrated in the eye.

Taurine Deficiency Seen In:

Parkinson's Disease.
Anxiety.
Candida.
AIDS.
Cardiac insufficiency.
Hypertension.
Depression.
Kidney failure.

Taurine Excess Seen In:

Vitamin B6 deficiency.
Rheumatoid arthritis.
Zinc deficiency.
Liver disease.

Predictive Value:

Taurine levels, whether high or low, indicate whether further lab work is needed. For example, if Taurine levels are low and the clinical picture is suggestive of Candidiasis, one should test for Candida through comprehensive stool analysis and/or anti-Candida antibodies.

If Taurine levels are high, zinc and Vitamin B6 levels should be tested. P5P, an important form of Vitamin B6 is necessary for many amino acid reactions to take place.
Logged

"If the pet food does not perform in the consumer's hands, then all of the advertising on earth will not be persuasive." Dr. R. Glenn Brown. Canadian Veterinary Journal, Volume 35, in April of 1994
lesliek
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 10094


Trooper,Remy & Fragile


« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2010, 06:57:40 AM »

Don't forget that humans can produce it & cats can't. So that changes the chance of too much being produced naturally while supplementing.
Logged

"the world's most inept extortionist"
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Copyright 2007 Itchmo.com: Read the latest cat, dog and pet news, pet food recall info, product reviews and more — updated daily.
Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap