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Author Topic: Break Sticks/Dog fights  (Read 656 times)
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JanC
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« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2008, 09:14:15 AM »

I Googled basket muzzles & came up with a ton of websites.  This one had a lot of different ones:

http://www.morrco.com/dogmuzzles1.html

So they're out there.  You may have to order one & pay S&H but I think it's worth it.

Where I walk Hannah, there are a fair amount of pit bulls.  I am deathly afraid of them (sorry), especially the ones I see at the park.  They are straining at the leash trying to get to Hannah (I have no clue if they want to play with her or eat her) so I always leave.  I've never seen any muzzled......let me tell you, I would feel 100% better if they were.  These dogs are growling while they're straining & I'm always afraid they'll break free.  Usually young men at the other end of the leash......I often wonder if they think this is the "macho" thing to do to impress the ladies.  Haven't seen any ladies impressed lately! Grin  I do see other pet parents take their dogs & get out of there......have even seen parents pick up their kids & leave.

I admire you for wanting to do the right thing. Smiley
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JessiesGirl
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« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2008, 05:05:28 PM »

Wow! I've not checked in lately and I am really touched by how many of you responded so compassionately!  Grin Cry

I think you've all convinced me to get a muzzle! Really. It would alleviate so much stress and potential for harm. While I certainly fear for the safety of other dogs, I am more afraid that someone will try to protect their beloved pet and be bitten. And that can all go away with a muzzle.

Realistically, she'd need to wear it both on walks and at all times at my mom's. We've had a few human error situations where our signals got crossed about who was 'out' and who was behind a gate or in a crate and those rarely end without some drama.

Our specialty dog/cat/bird store owners on the corner are very much involved in pit rescue, so they might be a good resource for advice. If I can take the constant lecture about a raw diet. Wink (Yes, I know many are very successful with it, but we aren't ready to go there just yet. )

I've lived with Jess in two states. One which has a one-bite rule--you basically get a free pass on the first bite, but the dog gets put down with the second.  Where I live now, you are liable no matter the circumstance, even if someone enters your property uninvited or announced. If a bite to a human results, bye-bye doggy.  I think that in my mom's state, although I haven't checked recently, the animal is quarantined unless you can immediately produce papers (yes, I travel with a copy of her records in my glovebox) and it's a one-bite state.

Thanks again for your sincere efforts to help, and for recognizing that I am really trying to keep a dog who is a wonderful companion but has limitations regarding her life outside our home. I didn't know what I was getting into when I adopted her. She didn't look pitty at all, even to the vet. When she hit about a year old, that's when I started to get the "that dog's got some pit in her" comments from people who knew dogs well. But I made a commitment to her, and I intend to honor it. I know what needs to be done to control her undesirable characteristics and I am trying to meet that challenge. I get into trouble when I have to trust other people to do the same. So you are all right--the best defense against the inevitable mistakes/unanticipated situations is a muzzle.

I forget who mentioned that they are nervous around pits. But that's not crazy. Like any powerful and/or fighting breed, ideally you would both know the breeder and the bloodline, as well as know that the dog-owner is very experienced. There is no way to know that when you see a pit coming at you on the street, or in a park, etc. So it's wise to be alert. Because when things happen with these dogs, they happen insanely quickly and with little to no warning. (the few folks who have seen Jessie go all Cujo have all kept repeating the same thing--But it happened out of nowhere! And she is SO FAST!!)

As I said, I'm no dog neophyte. I grew up with them, with a responsible breeder who bred for temperament as well as other characteristics that are ideal to her breed of choice. I know what 'most' dogs do when things are heating up. And I'm telling you, it's not going to happen with some pits. They have a history that demands different traits. Yes, you can train around that with a good bloodline and a solid trainer. But it's in there, as the breed standard traits are in any breed type. Hounds will track a scent until they drop, some of them no matter how well they know the recall. Terriers will chase small game. Setters will pay more attention to a bird than to you sometimes. Some retrieving breeds can't be kept from a lake or stream (or your morning shower). They are what they are.  The idea is not to outlaw any breed, but to be aware of their instinctive reactions, and that at any time, those reactions may override their training. It's just a lot less worrisome when your pug decides to follow his instincts then when your Rottie does. Wink

Trudy, again, my heart goes out to you and yours. I understand the confusion and the pain of having our heretofore loyal, loving animal suddenly attack a family member(even though 4-legged) and become, before our eyes, someone you neither know nor understand. And the heart-wrenching decisions that often follow such an experience. To be honest, if I had children, I don't think I'd still have Jessie.  And if I had owned more than one dog, one of them would have had to go. Odd as it sounds, it would probably have been the victim, as that dog is more easily re-homed than a dog like Jess.  Undecided  But Trudy, you continue to amaze me with your big heart.  Kiss






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JessiesGirl
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« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2008, 05:30:03 PM »

Should have added:

I think it also makes sense for me to have a break stick.

Jessie is actually quite used to having my hands in her mouth. When she was a puppy, she was a bit of a thief.  Grin She'd grab things off coffee tables and such, and I, never knowing just what she had stolen, would grab her jaws, open them, and shake her head until her prize fell out of her mouth. (Yes, I am sure it looked as ridiculous as it sounds! )  Often it turned out to be earrings ( I had a bad habit of taking them off when I got home and leaving them too low when I first got her at 6 months) with which she could have hurt herself had she swallowed them. We still have a sterling hoop earring that is a mangled straight line from her early days.  Cheesy She is very concerned with nipping people, and lies down and looks totally mournful if she thinks she nipped you by mistake in a game. And we brush her teeth every day. So she gets the whole "hands in the mouth aren't going to hurt me" and "I better let go immediately". Although I do not recommend this at all, I once got her off a dog by putting my hands in her mouth in utter desperation because I knew when it clicked that my fingers were in there, she'd let go and I could get her off the other dog. I got a nice cut on one finger from that, because it took a second for her to figure out, "Oh Hell, That's My Person! " So again, do not recommend! Don't try that one at home, kids.

But what I am getting at is that I think I could get the break stick in there. And we could practice with it in calm situations. The odd thing with pits is that once they have a hold, they just hang on. They don't keep trying for new bites--they hold what they have already. So you actually do have a shot at getting something in their mouths, even if the positioning is tricky. Their head is only moving as much as the other dog is, because they are firmly attached to the other dog. I know it sounds odd, but that's what they do. And that is definitely Jessie's MO.
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petslave
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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2008, 10:26:15 AM »

I think those breaksticks are a great idea, JG.  I know what you mean about breed traits.  People get dogs because they like the look or it's the latest one on a favorite TV show, then they have no clue what they are in for.

I've always had setters or setter mixes - I love them but yes they do run off a LOT.  My irish & english setters both had a bad habit of leading other dogs off too.  Both were gone several days at a time occasionally when I lost them on woodland walks.  And my current 2 dogs are half coonhound - I use Gentle Leaders on them because on a collar, even a prong collar, they pull my shoulders out of the socket trying to track every scent out there.

Let us know what you get for Jessie & how it's working.  It's all valuable info!
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dingbat
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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2008, 05:16:34 PM »

Jessiesgirl

Get a basket muzzle.

NO one may like my response, but here goes.

After years of owning dogs that do not get along with each other and will fight, especially the males, we have learned to keep ours apart at all times. Lots of work but that is the way it goes.

IMO, you have 2 choices, either get a muzzle or put the dog down.

You obviously CANNOT  control this dog. Ours are much bigger than a pit bull, but we can pull them apart, and my wife is small. I would not own a dog that I could not control, one that will not let go. You have done the training, and she is just the kind of dog that is dog aggressive.

So there is my 2 cents, take it for what it is worth.

good luck

db
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disclaimer: All comments above are my opinion, any reference to persons living or dead are purely coincidental, no claims are made to the verifiability of any statements that could be misconstrued as being verifiable.
JessiesGirl
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« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2008, 12:27:56 PM »

Dingbat, no offense taken. I think you are right! No one can completely control Jessie once other people are in the mix, or if she escapes confinement. My pet sitter and I do better with her than most because we keep her on-leash or in my house with no other animals, or off leash in a confined (fenced) area where I am at the gate and don't allow anyone else in. But there have been enough incidents when Jess is off-leash, in a variety of situations, to convince me all that you are giving very sound advice. We have never even come close to an incident on-leash, but she doesn't spend her entire life that way. And whenever she is off-leash, even, potentially, at home without other dogs, something could happen if she got out or had access to another dog. So I am in no way disagreeing with you.

And you're correct that the issue is not her size, it's her temperament and fight behavior.  It would be easier to disengage a larger but less tenacious dog, or one who didn't 'latch on'. 

Now I am trying to figure out the best basket muzzle. But a muzzle is coming!

Petslave, my mom breeds English, so that is what I grew up with. She won't consider selling a dog to anyone without a fenced yard, for exactly the phenomenon you are describing. Once in awhile, they just have to track a scent. Google Earth has been a big help to her, as she can call up potential buyers (if they meet her other criteria) to ensure they have a fence.  And I have driven to several potential owners' homes on her behalf because they lived closer to me than to her, to confirm that they did indeed have a fenced yard.

I don't mean to make it sound as though all pits or pit mixes have the 'Jessie issues'. They don't. But some do, and they do share a style of engagement with other dogs, when aggressive, that Jessie exhibits perfectly. And those are a combination of the pit heritage and some quirk of Jessie's.

And, petslave, you are also correct that many pet owners don't have any sense of the history of their breed when purchasing a dog. I tried, but with a mix, it was not easy. She looked sort of pointerish as a pup. How do insert a pic?? LOL

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lesliek
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« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2008, 12:51:10 PM »

Don't ask me about pix,everytime I try Menusux has to fix it for me ! Grin
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JessiesGirl
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« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2008, 01:53:14 PM »

LOL! I couldn't figure the pic thing out. But I do think many would be surprised at what Jess looked like at 6 mos and what she looks like full-grown!
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petslave
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« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2008, 08:38:33 PM »

Everyone uses flickr to post their pics here, but I'm still stuck in the old method of just attaching from my computerit during Reply.  Click the Additional Options line at lower left of reply box, click the Browse button & navigate to the pic & click on it.  Then Post. 

The pic has to be under 128kb for it to work.  I never have luck posting more than one or two at a time this way, but you're supposed to be able to post 4.
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JessiesGirl
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« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2008, 11:34:18 AM »

So they are inserting links, rather than uploading a file?  Shocked No wonder I couldn't figure it out!
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