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Author Topic: Was it really trichloromelamine rather than melamine???  (Read 8326 times)
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mal
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« on: September 27, 2007, 12:36:53 PM »

From the Shanghai Daily website:

Export quality attacked because Western media sees China as a threat


Perhaps the Chinese export that stirred up the biggest health scare is China's pet food to the US. It was found to contain trichloromelamine, a poisonous ingredient.

However, in May, an FDA/USDA (United States Department of Agriculture) joint news release announced that scientists had concluded very low risk to humans from food containing trichloromelamine


http://www.shanghaidaily.com/sp/article/2007/200709/20070927/article_332628.htm

trichloromelamine is a comination of melamine and chlorine which has been approved by the EPA as a sanitizer and disinfectant:

http://www.hschem.com/tcm.html

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/foia/reviews/077101.htm


This ingredient has been studues and documented as moderately toxic:

Abstract : The subchronic study examined the toxicity of the food service disinfectant trichloromelamine (TCM) in rats following oral administration-for 90 days. Associated with the administration of TCM in rats were lesions in the stomach and trachea, while also causing engorgement of the small blood vessels of the adrenals, brain, kidneys, liver, lung and pituitary. The no observed adverse effect level in the 90-day study was 30 mg/kg/day. Trichloromelamine should be considered moderately toxic when ingested acutely, and continuous ingestion could cause serious health effects.... Trichloromelamine, Toxicity, 14-Day, 90-Day.

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA259102

So what was really found in pet food. Why would a Chinese website state Trichloromelamine, while the FDA only stated melamine. Makes sense it was Trichloromelamine since there was chlorine found in the food as well.

What the "h..e.. double hockey sticks" is going on???


Sorry for the mis-information. It was cyanuric acid found in pet food, which is used as a stabilizer for chlorine. There was a connection but I got it bas ackward. My apologies.   


BTW..The article is written from a Chinese point of view..lots of US bashing it..so be prewarned.









« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 12:57:49 PM by mal » Logged
dingbat
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2007, 05:20:20 PM »

This is some nasty stuff, unstable, very toxic, could this be what was in the food??

Try googling it and look at some of the results,

nasty, nasty stuff

db
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DMS
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2007, 09:49:57 PM »

That trichloromelamine does sound a lot like what we put in our pools for disinfection for a stabalized chlorine source. I use trichloro-s-triazinetrione--which I definitely would not want to eat or even breathe in too deeply-and wonder about using in the pool. I believe these triazines are very similar in composition to melamine.  They are part of the degradation pathways of pesticides.  The end result, once again, I am not a chemist, but I believe is cyanuric acid.  We were all looking at this before when the pet food crisis began.

see the pathway:

http://umbbd.msi.umn.edu/tria/tria_map.html

maybe it is time to revisit this idea.
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mal
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2007, 07:07:55 AM »

 More info on Trichloromelamine from the EPA:

Summary of Use:
Food:
Trichloromelamine is used as an indirect food-contact sanitizer and disinfectant in or on: mess gear (used at oversees military bases); food processing plants; eating establishments (on equipment, utensils, dishware, glasses, surfaces, tabletops, countertops, floors, walls, sinks, and splashbacks); industrial and institutional food service areas (premises and equipment); food marketing, storage, and distribution equipment and utensils; food dispensing equipment; soft custard equipment; and household/domestic dwellings (food-contact surfaces). Trichloromelamine is also used as a direct food-contact sanitizer in one product as a fresh fruit and vegetable wash.
Non-Food:
Trichloromelamine is used as a sanitizer on non-food contact premises and equipment in hospitals and nursing homes (non-critical areas) and institutional, commercial, and industrial settings.
Target Pests:
Slime-Forming Bacteria, Animal Pathogenic Bacteria (g- and g+
vegetative), Bacteria (causing rot or decay), Algae Formulation Types: All end-use products are powders and are soluble concentrates.

Could this have been added to grain and/or meat ingredients to "fix" the poor quality and diseased ingredients?

Melamine Toxicity
Trichloromelamine is expected to rapidly break down into hypochlorous acid and melamine (EPA, 1994). A number of toxicity studies have been performed to characterize the hazard of melamine. The Agency has concluded that it is unlikely that melamine is a carcinogenic hazard to humans from the pesticidal usage of a pesticide product (EPA, 1988). They noted that “humans are not likely to be exposed to the high doses of melamine that produce the urinary tract toxicity that precedes and seems to lead to the carcinogenic response in rats” (EPA, 1993). This conclusion is based on the review of a number of studies, including a mouse carcinogenicity study in which no evidence of tumors were found due to exposure to melamine at the highest dose tested. In addition, the weight-of-evidence is not sufficient to reasonably anticipate that melamine will cause serious or irreversible chronic health effects (EPA, 1983).

 Of course the EPA did not expect companies to be adding melamine in their feed products and ingredients when they initially did this study. Therefore the study informtation is no longer accurate.

a. Toxicity (Hazard) Assessment
Information regarding the potential ecotoxicity of trichloromelamine is shown in Table 8. In addition, although the information currently available regarding melamine, a degradate of trichloromelamine, toxicity is insufficient for a hazard assessment, the Agency believes that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that melamine may be chronically toxic to fish and invertebrates, causing adverse effects on reproduction and embryonic development. It was noted that melamine may be more toxic, chronically, than the data reviewed indicate (EPA, 1983). Based on the structure-activity-relationship (SAR) of melamine to meta-phenylenediamine, the 96-hour EC50 for melamine for green algae is expected to be 2.4 mg/L. The LC50 for daphnids is expected to be 5.9 mg/L, and the MATC is expected to range between 0.05 and 0.09 mg/L.

There are 64 pages in the report. I could not go through it all at this time. But the glaring inadequacies are there..not enough data on chemical breakdown and possible interactions with other substances.

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/trichloromelamine_red.pdf

« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 07:12:43 AM by mal » Logged
DMS
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2007, 09:38:14 AM »

I just sent a letter to the author of that newspaper article asking her to verify her source of information about trichloromelamine being the contaminant.  Did anyone find the FDA/Usda joint press release she/he  is referring to? 
It seems unlikely that multiple processing plants would have an accident with their sanitizing agent, although if there is a common denominator here, I wonder what amount of trichloromelamine would have been involved with this pet food contamination? Could someone in either the rendering or processing part of this have been trying a new procedure?  It seems they just can't get enough of "innovation."  Maybe they thought the chlorine would quickly degrade, but the cyanuric acid would stabilize it.Huh
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 04:43:00 PM by DMS » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2007, 02:02:37 PM »

Process for sanitizing animal carcasses The preferred biocide is trichloromelamine (TCM). Polyethylene oxide may be used as a thickening agent.
 http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20050069623.html

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straybaby
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2007, 04:52:33 PM »

Klondike,

you really have to wonder what the bacteria load is these days at the mega-processors. when they were discussing the beef recall on CNN this morning, a woman from the USDA basically said the days of cooked medium are over. which is scary to think about when you read a patent like this one! they've REALLY F'ed up our food supply with their greed. i knew it was bad, but things are much worse than i ever imagined. i spent so many years choosing fresh over processed, that i forgot to pay attention to some of this crap. so sad what they've done to fresh foods . . .  Angry

do they hang the meat at all at the big processors? or do they just butcher and ship?
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straybaby
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2007, 06:18:40 PM »

Klondike,

you really have to wonder what the bacteria load is these days at the mega-processors. when they were discussing the beef recall on CNN this morning, a woman from the USDA basically said the days of cooked medium are over. which is scary to think about when you read a patent like this one!.....

What in the heck did she mean there, Straybaby?  That we need to irradiate all food and/or use those potent biocides?  It sounds like she meant that cooking food is not good enough.  That is disgusting and the big ag companies are crushing the smaller competition that produces cleaner food.  Big ag companies pretty much run the USDA and the FDA is not helping matters by hassling the small raw pet food companies for no good reason.  Their food is not making pets sick!

I do not want my food irradiated!  If they want or need to do that to the big ag food, fine, because I don't want to buy that stuff anyway, but our government should not be supporting unfair competition that is destroying the businesses that sell the food I want.

(And I know that food irradiation does not make food radioactive.  But it changes the nutritional profile and I don't want that.  I don't want icky, dirty food that needs that kind of treatment in the first place!  We should have the choice to buy food produced by small businesses.)

i think she meant that you have to cook it until it's dead again. no pink and juicy. i'm not sure if medium well passes anymore! i was only catching it while i was on the computer. i just remembered as a little kid and going to a steak house (big special night out in our family) waitress asked me how i wanted my steak and i said "really pink in the middle" as that's how i liked them. everyone thought it was cute (i was 7ish), not dangerous! even in HS, college and going back home to visit as an adult, i could always have my steak the way i liked it. sorry, cooking a tenderloin all the way through is just WRONG! thank god i bought a side!   Grin  don't have to kill my burgers again either!

check the chicken jerky thread on irradiating meat. some links in there say it's not safe (if this tired brain remembers correctly!). but even if it was, there is something seriously wrong that we are working towards that direction, not better practices to keep our food PURE AND HEALTHY!!! CEO's should have to eat what they sow. they need to take out insurance policies on more than their imports . . .

yes, i'm angry yet again!!! thankfully it was farm pick up day so my head won't explode. there's something so relaxing about spending the day prepping, freezing and cooking with pure, fresh, safe, healthy veggies from the farm.

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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2007, 06:24:29 PM »

We have EHD in NJ also. They found 15 dead deer at the Atsion Lake/Mullica River area in Shamong NJ. 45 others in surrounding areas this summer.It looks like we have lost a lot of does,there are fawns wandering alone & with other fawns. No does.A few of the local farms have lost barn cats & kittens also.Just found dead with no apparent cause.
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rom6
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2007, 06:47:59 PM »

mal, Klondike, DMS - thanks for your dedication to digging up the facts and figures.

You guys ROCK!!
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mal
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2007, 06:57:11 PM »



rom6

Thank you for your praise. In my case it is simply a matter of lucking out and puting the right search request into google. The really scary part is all I am doing is searching public documents ..by luck and by golly. What is out there that we do not have access to???

 Huh Huh
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« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2007, 06:31:27 PM »

DMS from you post are you saying that the circle remains un-broken? That what goes around comes around? We are going back to square two or three now. Might be actually what is taking place and a good thought to pursue.
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DMS
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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2007, 06:23:37 AM »

In light of this trichloromelamine development, I think we should try to find out what other compounds containing or degrading into melamine may be used in food processing.  I guess it could be a compound that shouldn't be used around food as well.  Gee, that narrows it down a bit.   Many people were saying they thought the melamine may have been a red herring to distract our attention from the  real culprit.  I have some real suspicions about the chlorine as well.  What becomes of it during food processing?  How long does it persist?  Does it combine with other compounds instead of just degrading or evaporating?   Does anyone know?
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mal
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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2007, 06:39:53 AM »



DMS

I totally agree with you. IMO the melamine is not the problem. Melamine appears to be a "residual" of many chemical compounds.  with the trichloromelamine for instance, the breakdown produces chlorine as well  as melamine. and this substance, as we have found, is used in a variety of industries. The melamine may not necessarily be toxic, but the other compounds, as well as combining with who knows what may most certainly be.

We need a chemist on board here to help with this approach.


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DMS
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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2007, 07:31:20 AM »

Maybe it is the cumulative amount of melamine as well.  Some from the feed, some from the sanitizing, some from the packaging, some from the fertilizer. This is a real all-around-use chemical.  And it did not really look too safe in some of the studies which note carcinogenesis and a whole host of other things.  Let's not forget the fda banning pregnant women from inspecting the gluten and requiring hazardous chemical suits.  What were they looking for?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 10:45:20 AM by DMS » Logged

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