JustMe
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Herdin' Cats and 2 GSDs
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« on: May 09, 2008, 09:40:04 AM » |
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I'm losing it. Do we have a taurine thread already? I want to talk about taurine. I need an education.
Taurine and the feline heart/canine heart.
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Never forget our cats and dogs and the Pet Food Recalls of 2007; the reason most of us are here!
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catbird
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2008, 10:02:39 AM » |
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If we do have a taurine thread (other than the not-from-china-one), it's so deeply buried that I can't find it either.  Has anyone else noticed an increase in heart murmurs in cats over the last 5-10 years? I now have 2 of 5 with murmurs; both are the same age (about to turn 11.) I wonder if, like so many other things, the pet food companies are ordering taurine and getting something that is adulterated, not pure taurine, so our cats are not getting enough. |
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petslave
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2008, 10:03:17 AM » |
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I think there has been a lot of discussion, but it's spread everywhere. The most interesting study I ran across is where they ground up whole rabbits for a nutrition study, thinking they would provide a complete meal for cats, then some of the cats got sick/died because there wasn't enough taurine! Here is good background info for cats - why needed, symptoms of deficiency and amount needed: http://www.petngarden.com/cats/cats4.phpThis article says the high amount of taurine is found in the rodent's BRAINS: http://petcaretips.net/cat_taurine.html"In the wild, rodents formed a large part of the feline diet, and the rodents had significant levels of taurine in their brains." I was wondering how a little tiny bird or mouse heart would provide enough taurine. Maybe this explains it. Taurine in dogs (sorry it's a NB article, but looks like a good synopsis of several important studies): http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/home/health.html |
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catbird
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2008, 10:07:11 AM » |
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BRAINS?? So as if the hearts aren't gross enough, I have to feed my cats brains?  |
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kaffe
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2008, 12:13:03 PM » |
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This is a good and much-needed thread. We dd have quite a bit of discussion on taurine over the year and those posts are scattered everywhere! It will be good to put them all in one place. Anyway, my FIRST contribution to this thread would be the taurine content of various meats/foods compiled by UC Davies. It is a pdf file and I am attaching it here.
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JustMe
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Herdin' Cats and 2 GSDs
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2008, 01:04:49 PM » |
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Maybe little-by-little as we come across the various threads we can link them here or move some as necessary. I just have a minute right now. Has anybody researched vitamin c and felines? The reason I ask is I ordered taurine, 3 different brands. One of them has vitamin C added to it. I started looking into vitamin c and it does not sound like a good thing in my research on the fly. I'm not at all versed in vitamins, so help! Avoid supplementation with vitamin C. Vitamin C is converted to oxalic acid that modifies into oxalate. Be careful of pet vitamin supplements.http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1741 |
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Never forget our cats and dogs and the Pet Food Recalls of 2007; the reason most of us are here!
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petslave
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2008, 01:16:39 PM » |
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Unlike us, cats & dogs make their own Vit C so don't need it as a supplement. (humans & guinea pigs are stuck with needing to get it from outside sources). I still see recommendations though in giving extra C to ailing or stressed pets, and to boost their immune system, especially for dogs. No C for CRF kitties: http://www.felinecrf.org/nutritional_requirements.htm#Vitamin_C"Additional vitamin C is not a good idea for CRF cats, because it is acidifying and CRF cats already have a tendency towards acidosis. " Wonder why they put C in with taurine? Odd combo - is taurine better absorbed with C? |
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JustMe
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Herdin' Cats and 2 GSDs
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2008, 01:22:13 PM » |
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Wonder why they put C in with taurine? Odd combo - is taurine better absorbed with C?
Thank you Petslave. This was in a human supplement that I bought. |
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Never forget our cats and dogs and the Pet Food Recalls of 2007; the reason most of us are here!
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kaffe
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2008, 02:12:38 PM » |
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Vit C is a good supplement only at those times when kitty needs help, such as:
1) when kitty is taking antibiotics - because the freindly bacteria in the gut which help produce vit C is wiped out by the antibiotics. After the course of antibiotics is also a good time to give some probiotics to replace freindly bacteria that was lost.
2) a bout of upper respiratory infection... Vit C seems to give kitty the strength to lick the viral infection or infection of any kind.
When supplementing with Vit C, it is a good rule of thumb not to exceed 250mg per day for 3 days in a row. More than that is not needed and could give kitty diarrhea. It takes prolonged supplementation of vit C to produce oxalate crystals... so, the odd few days or so during illness or when needed does not pose any danger IMHO. The only exception is as Petslave pointed out, is in CRF/CRI cats whose guts already tend to be very acidic.
That said, I read an anecdotal story of this lady who regularly added Vit C in her cats' raw food becuase she read that Vit C softens the stool. She did this for about a year... end result: her cat developed oxalate stones in kidney --- yikes!!!!
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JanC
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2008, 08:32:14 AM » |
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I'm quite interested in supplementing Hannah's meals w/taurine but I haven't seen a whole lot about it. This is about canine seizures (very interesting article as I do have a friend who has two dogs with seizures) but it does have info on the requirements for dogs. I'm sorry if this thread is supposed to be about cats but I thought some doggie parents might also be interested in reading up on taurine: http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/taurine.htmDon......thanks for that link. I think I'd rather feed it in powder form than any other which may contain other cwap. |
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Until one has loved an animal, part of their soul remains unawakened - - Anon.
If there are no dogs in heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went - - Will Rogers
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trudy1
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2008, 12:24:59 PM » |
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My bengal, Ripple, gets 500mg. of taurine a day. He does have a heart condition, and this has been excellant for Him. he had 2 seizures before I started this.
I do get it from the vet, and it is expencive.
In the vet book, it says 500mg. a day for a cat.
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kaffe
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2008, 01:30:58 PM » |
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Wow! 500mg a day?!!! But that is a therapeutic dose, I think? Poor Jessie! Have you also considered supplementing with Co-Q10 for Jessie's heart condition, Trudy? Maybe ask your vet about it.
When I began to make my own catfood, I quickly learnt that it is a good rule of thumb to add 2000mg of taurine per kilo of [wet] food... even when using meats rich in natural taurine. THe 2000mg supp was taken from an AFFCO recoendation or regulation to petfood manufacturers (for dry food, it is 1000mg per kilogram). Taurine is extremely water-soluble and easily lost in cooking and to some extnt freezing. That's why now, I add a dash of taurine powder to almost every raw and cooked meal I serve the cats. Taurine is cnjugated by bile acids and is excreted in the feces. For this reason, over-dosing on taurine is extremely rare if it happens at all.
Don: have you looked into eggshell powder as the main calcium source for your home-made food? This is what I use for my own home-made raw and cooked. One teaspoon eggshell has 1800mg - 2000mg elemental calcium carbonate plus many trace minerals. When balancing your calcium-to-phosphorus ratio, you need to remember that 1.2 - 1.5 calcium refers to "elemental calcium." There's a good discussion on this in Maxhouse (?). It was what turned me of using say calcium citrate or lactate to balnce out my phosphorus. You end up not adding say 1 tsp 1000mg calcium citrate to a recipe with 800mg phosphorus... you have to factor in how much of that 1000mg calcium citate is elemental calcium and if I remeber correctly, it is somehting like 40-60%... yikes. One teaspoon eggshell on the other had is:
1 teaspoon eggshell = 5g = 5000mg calcium carbonate
5000 x .40 = 2000mg elemental calcium carbonate
There are also studies out there that indicate calcium carbonate as less likely to raise serum calcium levels than other calcium forms. This is very important detail for those with CRF kitties.
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JanC
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2008, 02:49:03 PM » |
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I plan on doing a lot more research to find out exactly how much taurine my dog would need on a daily basis......if anything, I always give a little less than the recommendation. I figure it's like pet food: they always tell you to give twice what the dog or cat truly needs so I go easy on supplements. I know an overdose of something is a lot worse than none at all so I'd rather go on the low side. It's just the first article I happened to come upon that I found interesting.....seems to me that I heard something a while back about seizures & taurine. I'll dig around a little bit to see what other websites recommend as a dosage & go from there. However, from a few things I've read lately, researchers are finding that taurine is far more important to a dog than was ever thought before this.  |
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Until one has loved an animal, part of their soul remains unawakened - - Anon.
If there are no dogs in heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went - - Will Rogers
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trudy1
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2008, 05:53:56 PM » |
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Kaffe, It's Ripple, not Jessie, but Jessies' Dad who has dialated cardiomyopathy.
He had 2 seizures and I rushed Him to vets. The exrays showed this. Since He's been on the taurine, He hasn't had any problems. He takes a baby asprin twice a week, too.
He takes piils, one 250mg. in the morning, and 250mg. at night.
What would the Co-Q10 do?
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