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catwoods
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« Reply #105 on: June 05, 2008, 02:28:20 PM » |
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The use of potassium gluconate rather than potassium chloride for renal patients has recently been discussed. That reminded me of a chapter on acid-base balance I once read in "Pathophysiology, Concepts of Altered Health States", by Carol Mattson Porth. I like to know the reasons for things myself, although without a science background, I am far from understanding this very complex system! Petslave has posted an excellent link under "Fancy Feast from hell" from a veterinary source. I am hoping this human textbook might add some more information - the amounts and values would be different I'm sure, but the kidney systems would operate in a somewhat similar manner in both humans and felines, I believe. Direct quotes from the book follow (which I hope is OK for research purposes): "Unit IV Alterations in Body Fluids.: "Base excess or deficit measures the level of all the buffer systems of the blood - hemoglobin, protein, phosphate, and bicarbonate.....For practical purposes, base escess or deficit is a measurement of bicarbonate excess or deficit." "The normal range of values for venous bicarbonate is 24mgEq/liter to 33mEq/liter (24mmol/liter to 33mmol/liter)." "The ability of the body to maintain pH within the normal physiologic range depends on respiratory and renal mechanisms as well as blood buffer systems." "The bicarbonate and chloride anions can produce changes in acid-base balance as they are interchanged." "Figure 29-5 as described underneath:"The anion gap in acidosis due to excess metabolic acids and excess serum chloride levels. Unmeasured anions such as phosphates, sulfates, and organic acids increase the anion gap because they replace bicarbonate (this assumes there is no change in sodium content)."
The graph shows:
"Normal: Sodium 142mEq/L Chloride 103m Eq/L Bicarbonate 27m Eq/L Anion gap 12m Eq/L"
"Acidosis due to excess organic acids: Sodium142m Eq/L Chloride 103mEq/L Bicarbonate 14m Eq/L Anion gap 25mEq/L"
"Acidosis due to excess chloride levels: Sodium 142 mEq/L Chloride 116 mEq/L Bicarbonate 14m Eq/L Anion gap 12m Eq/L" (p. 524)
So, two ways for metabolic acidosis to occur are described in the graph.
On page 525, Porth states "When the anion gap is within normal limits, there is a reciprocal relationship between serum chloride concentrations and serum bicarbonate levels; when chloride levels are elevated, the bicarbonate levels decrease. Hyperchloremic acidosis can occur as the result of abnormal absorption of chloride by the kidneys or as a result of treatment with chloride-containing medications....." Porth then describes how certain iv medications can cause this. So I'm assuming, (although I don't know for sure) that oral intake of chloride containing supplements might tip this delicate chloride-bicarbonate balance if the kidneys are not functioning in top form and that is why potassium gluconate is reccommended rather than potassium chloride. Perhaps veterinary and science trained persons could shed some more light on this, if needed. HTH
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« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 03:56:34 PM by catwoods »
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kaffe
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« Reply #106 on: June 05, 2008, 03:48:30 PM » |
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Excellent reference, Catwoods! Thank you much.
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kaffe
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« Reply #107 on: June 10, 2008, 04:27:09 PM » |
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Davey's Roasted Guinea/Cornish Hen and Pumpkin Renal Recipe450 grams Roasted Guinea Hen or Cornish Hen or Chicken 200 grams Canned Pumpkin 2/3 tsp Eggshell powder 1000mg Taurine 1 tab B-50 Vitamin B Complex (may skip if you are already supplementing Vit B's everyday) Method: 1. Wrap whole guinea or cornish hen or chicken in aluminumfoil and roast in oven until done. Allow to cool; remove the skin and shred the flesh. 2. Combine shredded flesh, pumpkin and eggshell. Mix thoroughly. If kitty likes a more pasty consistency, you can use a food processor, adding enough water to achieve desired consistency. Protein: 94.9g Fat: 11.85g Carb: 16.2g Fiber: 5.6g Ash: 7.05g Total: 186g x 1000 = 186,000mg Phosphorus: 830.5mg / 186,000 x 100 = 0.4465%Protein: 94.9 / 186 x 100 = 51.02%
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JustMe
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Herdin' Cats and 2 GSDs
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« Reply #108 on: June 10, 2008, 04:40:04 PM » |
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Whoaaaaaa. Wow. What a pleasant surprise. Thank you, Kaffe. I'm sure Davey, the lion, will love your latest concoction. He just had a little grass-fed beef. He loves chicken. I have all the ingredients (including organic pumpkin and eggshell powder), except for the vitamin. Is that a human vitamin?
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Never forget our cats and dogs and the Pet Food Recalls of 2007; the reason most of us are here!
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kaffe
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« Reply #109 on: June 10, 2008, 05:15:20 PM » |
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Whoaaaaaa. Wow. What a pleasant surprise. Thank you, Kaffe. I'm sure Davey, the lion, will love your latest concoction. He just had a little grass-fed beef. He loves chicken. I have all the ingredients (including organic pumpkin and eggshell powder), except for the vitamin. Is that a human vitamin?
Yes - you can use human B-50 Vitamin B-Complex - that's what I use for my cat food. But CRF/CRI kitties should be supplemented with extra Vit B's becuase they lose a lot in their urine. There are veterinary Vitamin B's fortified with iron that you can get from pet stores OTC. These are best for CRF cats becuase they also tend to go anemic - supplemental iron is always a good idea BEFORE theyshow clinical signs of anemia.
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petslave
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« Reply #110 on: June 10, 2008, 06:36:55 PM » |
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Oh that looks like a wonderful simple recipe, kaffe, thanks! That one & the T&T beef recipe are next on the production line. I'm going out to buy ingredients tomorrow, so this came just in time.
Do we need to add the salmon & Vit E oils on this one? Liver for Vit A? Or is this more of an occasional treat?
Is there an human-grade iron supplement I can add, or will liver add enough? Not sure if I can get the vet grade B vitamins with iron here. Plus I already bought the B-50's.
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kaffe
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« Reply #111 on: June 10, 2008, 07:01:10 PM » |
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Oh that looks like a wonderful simple recipe, kaffe, thanks! That one & the T&T beef recipe are next on the production line. I'm going out to buy ingredients tomorrow, so this came just in time.
Do we need to add the salmon & Vit E oils on this one? Liver for Vit A? Or is this more of an occasional treat?
Is there an human-grade iron supplement I can add, or will liver add enough? Not sure if I can get the vet grade B vitamins with iron here. Plus I already bought the B-50's.
hmmm... OK... this is what I am doing for my own kitties. When I feed them a week's worth of one o two recipes without liver, I make sure they have at least 1 meal that has plenty of liver in it or as in Kaffe's case, I give him a piece of liver (cooked) as a treat becuase he so loves liver. If I am giving them food from a recipe that contains liver, then I don't give them any extra liver for that week. I am now giving Salmon Oil and Vit E separately becuase I need to make sure that at least Kaffe gets the amounts he needs... So, before their first meal of the day, I give the supplements via an oral syringe: I mix these in a small medicine cup for Kaffe: 500-1000mg Salmon Oil 1-2 drops from a Vit E 100IU capsule 2 drops from a Co-Q10 30mg capsule 1/4 tsp - liquid Vit B Complex 1 squirt - Feline Daily 72 -- Multi-Mineral For Cato: 500mg Salmon Oil 1 drop Vit E from 100IU capsule 1 squirt - Feline Daily 72 multimineral For CRF kitties, I have been seeing a lot of recommendations to faithfully supplement their diet with: 1. Vitamin B Complex , prefeable fortified with iron to protect against vit. B depletion from urine and to guard agaisnt anemia. Pet-Tinic or Nutrived are good choices. But if you have only Vit B-Complex unfortified with iron, thats OK for a time as long as their is adequate source of iron in the diet (meats and liver). 2. Salmon or fish oil - these are rich in Omega 3 EPA and DHA which are anti-inflammatory and have been shown to be reno-protective 3. Vit E (natural d-alpha tocopherol) is needed if one gives fish or slamon oil - also prevents scaring of soft tissues like liver, pancreas and kidneys 4. Fermentable Fiber - helps gut bacteria which breaks down nitrogenous wastes to be excreted in feces instead of by the kidneys, thus lesseing the kidneys' workload.... but be very very careful about using FOS becuase FOS helps in the absorbtion of calcium which in turn may lead to elevated calcium levels in the blood - we don;t want that!
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petslave
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« Reply #112 on: June 19, 2008, 08:15:59 PM » |
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Production question for home cookers:
I've been doing big cooking events, dividing & weighing ingredients, putting together 'packets' of all required ingredients without the supplements added, and freezing them. When a new batch of food is needed, I thaw a packet in fridge, put in the supplements then mix in food processor.
Of course that means having to clean the food processor 4-5 times total for that batch of food. What I want to do is mix the whole lot at one time, including the supplements, then freeze the food in portions. That way it's just thaw & feed, saving lots of time & cleaning.
Is anyone else doing that, and does anyone know if the supplements are damaged in freezing, like they are in cooking?
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kaffe
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« Reply #113 on: June 19, 2008, 08:30:30 PM » |
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Production question for home cookers:
I've been doing big cooking events, dividing & weighing ingredients, putting together 'packets' of all required ingredients without the supplements added, and freezing them. When a new batch of food is needed, I thaw a packet in fridge, put in the supplements then mix in food processor.
Of course that means having to clean the food processor 4-5 times total for that batch of food. What I want to do is mix the whole lot at one time, including the supplements, then freeze the food in portions. That way it's just thaw & feed, saving lots of time & cleaning.
Is anyone else doing that, and does anyone know if the supplements are damaged in freezing, like they are in cooking?
Good question, Petslave. I used to mix all the supplements at once into the food mix before portioning and freezing. When I do this, I am careful to add a fresh dash of powdered taurine as top dressing on every kitty meal --- some taurine is lost in feezing, but not very much - so adding a dash on top of kitty's food wil cover bases. I still mix all supplements into a raw or cooked mix - but only if said batch is for a week's worth of food for the cats. If more than that, then I prefer to add supplements later - into each meal - especially if you have salmon oil or fish oil becuase this goes stale very fast - not toxic, but no use either. So, mu suggestion for you is that if you are making a batch of food that is just for a week, then it is easier to process all of it at once in the blender and mix all your supplements in beofre freezing --- just remember to top dress kitty's meals with a dash - just a dash of extra taurine just in case.
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petslave
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« Reply #114 on: June 19, 2008, 08:43:14 PM » |
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Thanks, kaffe for the quick response! I'm making a batch tomorrow so this will help. I think I'll stick with the current production method. I had a feeling it would be best to mix after thawing, but the lazy part of me forced me to write that post.  I feed 6 cats in 3 pie plates, so it's hard to portion out individual doses of anything. My big worry is getting all the supplements blended really well through the mix so everyone gets what they need without having someone get too much. The food processor is a new thing for me, and frankly I hate it. All those bulky complex parts to clean & the scary blades. But it's for feeding my cats, not for my food, and I didn't see any other options. I tried to mix the first batch in my beloved easy to clean blender & the motor started smoking! Oh, I found another nutrition counter, nutritiondata.com. It gives very detailed results, but you have to register (free) to use it. The NAT analyzer is much easier to use, but if someone is really into numbers, that one is fun to mess with.
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kaffe
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« Reply #115 on: June 19, 2008, 08:54:06 PM » |
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petslave
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« Reply #116 on: June 19, 2008, 09:04:34 PM » |
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kaffe - if you go to My Pantry on there, you can enter a series of foods as a 'recipe' and it will add it all up for you. It's kind of nice, but very time consuming & I have no idea what I'm looking at afterwards!
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lesliek
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« Reply #117 on: June 19, 2008, 09:21:24 PM » |
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petslave- I do pretty much what kaffe is doing. I add the vit's & calcium & some others after cooking & before freezing,but salmon oil,taurine,acidophilus & glucosamine goes in at meal time.Also add the milk thistle at meal time,pumpkin goes in after it cools before freezing.If you use plastic or glass containers you can mix it pretty well w/o processor right before feeding. Just make sure its big enough to stir really well or you will have a bigger mess than dirty blades ! I put the dog food into a glass 4 cup measuring cup for warming & mixing & the catfood into a 2 cup. Then portion out to bowls.Of course I still have the measuring cups & spoons & bowls to wash. I usually soak them in hot water while I get ready for work & then they wash up easily. kaffe-that genisis software sounds great ! But I don't think DH will go for that price.
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"the world's most inept extortionist"
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kaffe
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« Reply #118 on: June 19, 2008, 10:22:31 PM » |
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kaffe - if you go to My Pantry on there, you can enter a series of foods as a 'recipe' and it will add it all up for you. It's kind of nice, but very time consuming & I have no idea what I'm looking at afterwards!
aha! Thanks for the tip! It used to frustrate me that I had to add up arginine by hand!
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kaffe
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« Reply #119 on: June 19, 2008, 10:31:55 PM » |
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petslave- I do pretty much what kaffe is doing. I add the vit's & calcium & some others after cooking & before freezing,but salmon oil,taurine,acidophilus & glucosamine goes in at meal time.Also add the milk thistle at meal time,pumpkin goes in after it cools before freezing.If you use plastic or glass containers you can mix it pretty well w/o processor right before feeding. Just make sure its big enough to stir really well or you will have a bigger mess than dirty blades ! I put the dog food into a glass 4 cup measuring cup for warming & mixing & the catfood into a 2 cup. Then portion out to bowls.Of course I still have the measuring cups & spoons & bowls to wash. I usually soak them in hot water while I get ready for work & then they wash up easily. kaffe-that genisis software sounds great ! But I don't think DH will go for that price.
Yes - pricey --- I could understand if they had to gather all their data from scracth - but then I found out that they use the food data bank of the USDA anyway - same as NATS and NutritionData! So, I said... what's the point? It just has some pretty nifty calculating tools.... ahh well- maybe if I will lotto - but I donlt by lotto 
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