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Author Topic: DOGS: Recipes and Questions for Home Prepared Dog Food  (Read 32065 times)
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petslave
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2008, 08:33:39 AM »

Hi Moonlight - I would check to make sure the Vit D doesn't exceed what dogs need each day.  This link shows min/max number for the fat soluble vitamins:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?articleid=710

This site talks about calcium/phosphorous ratios and how much ground eggshell to add to balance the phosphorous in the meat:

http://www.pet-grub.com/part1/scene9.pets

They also sell an eggshell supplement for pets on there, not sure the source or quality of the shells, but I don't think there are any other supplements added.  I bought calcium carbonate/magnesium supplements, and have yet to figure out if the magnesium is a problem.
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lesliek
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2008, 08:35:49 AM »

Welcome Moonlight ! I couldn't find anything showing how much D3 or magnesium is in the first product,so I would worry about Vit D overdosing. They usually get enough between meat & sunlight. I do supplement it occasionally but only in the winter when theres less daylight. I think if I was going to buy it rather than make it,I would go with the second site. Personally I just make my own, I use the eggs in the food & grind the shells . Maybe Kaffe can take a look,she's our resident food expert.
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kaffe
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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2008, 01:37:59 PM »

The "optimum" Calcium-Phosphorus-Magnesium Ratio as found by Feline Instincts through a 12-yr 'study' on their resident cats is:

Ca:P:Mg = 1.3:1:0.06.

This templae could be used also with dogs --- cats tend to be a little more sensitive to the ratio balance than dogs.

My advice with Vit D supplementation is to be very careful with it and NOT to supplement at all if your dog's serum calcium (yes, Calcium) level is already at the high end of normal... you can precipitate a cascade of trouble.  Vitamin D is not really a "vitamin" as we know it --- it is actually a hormone produced by the kidneys and as with any hormone, one must be careful becuase when one hormone in the body is out of whack, it creates a disturbance in the whole endocrine system - pituitary, thyroid, parathyroid, spleen, adrenal, kidney, liver , etc.

A good way to ensure that your pet has adequate Vit D intake is to feed liver and kidney once a week.  Only when a pet does not eat these foods would I consider vit D supplement - and then just low potency like 400IU per week.

Oh - yes, dogs can synthesize vit D using sunlight, but cats cannot - not to any usable degree at any rate.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 01:43:16 PM by kaffe » Logged
petslave
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2008, 02:32:20 PM »

Thanks for the input everyone!  Good info, kaffe - I didn't know about the Vit D, sunlight & dogs.  I was wondering about that when I saw sunlight as a source in that chart I posted.  Since they don't have much skin showing, I wasn't sure if furry animals were able to use sun to produce D.  That's probably the one thing I'm still not sure mine are getting enough of in their home cooked meals. 
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petslave
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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2008, 03:34:12 PM »

I recently joined the Totally Home Cooking Canine Nutrition Yahoo group, for people that are home-cooking for their dogs (no raw feeding on this site).  

In the Files link on the left side of the page after you log into the group, there is an Excel spreadsheet that lets you put in your dog's weight, then it gives you nutritional requirements, based on NRC.  

It's pretty handy to get the numbers.  Then you'll probably drive yourself crazy trying to get everything perfectly balanced in each meal.  There is also a calcium chart based on your dog's weight.  

I haven't found a similar one for cats, which is too bad.  I could use that one.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 06:39:05 AM by petslave » Logged
sharky
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« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2008, 04:06:05 PM »

I use to be the "crazy " trying to balance every meal... till I asked the vet a % issue with one of my 1/2 raw 1/2 homemade days recipes ... she  Shocked You seriously are not trying to balance every meal perfectly Huh that is next to impossible and well time consuming... she then went on to explain complete and balanced is actually over the course of a MONTH for an animal ...  Embarrassed Embarrassed was me ./// life got much easier;) after that
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lesliek
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« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2008, 04:13:13 PM »

While I am careful with the supplements,I have to agree with Sharky.Think about it,we don't eat a balanced diet every single meal either. More like spread over a week to a month.
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kaffe
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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2008, 04:16:29 PM »



I've yet to find any source, including AAFCO, that can reconcile the "dry matter" calculation. Simply stated, it doesn't make any sense. Dry is 10% moisture and wet is more like 80%, but pets don't eat 4-5 times as much wet as dry. As close as I could ever tell, ounce for ounce, they eat about the same amount of food whether it's wet or dry. Homemade is basically wet food, but where I've been able to find numbers on supplements, it looks to me that it would be a mistake to calculate homemade on a "dry matter" basis, which would amount to adding on the order of 5 times as much of everything. The AAFCO numbers appear to match other numbers I've been able to dig up if it's calculated on an "as fed" basis.
...   I have yet to find a source that provides pet minimum daily requirements on all vitamins and minerals in the same terms as are available for humans. The argument against providing the information in those terms is dogs vary in size, so the amounts would be a lot different between large and small, but I don't see why it couldn't be expressed on a weight basis. For example, X amount of supplements, per 20 pounds of a pet's weight, per daily serving.


Don:  I once began a chart comparing what's in my home prepped raw with the nutritonal requirements posted by the NRC, Pitcairn, and a European paper... drove myself nuts... and 5CatMom too  Cheesy Cheesy

You're right about the extreme difficulty in calculating anything on a dry matter basis - very confusing... The nutritonal studies now calculate nutrient levels in foods not on DM or "As Fed" but in "Metabolizable Energy (ME)" --- yes --- another unit of measurement to confuse me even further!  Grrrrr....  This is what I am trying very hard to understand to date  Cheesy  I'll let you know if I "crack the code"  hee hee heee heee  It won't be anytime soon
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petslave
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2008, 04:17:28 PM »

That's what I keep hearing too, balanced over time, not each meal.  And how many of us even know what WE actually need in exact numbers!

I tried for a few weeks to figure out balancing and supplements, then just decided to do the best I could with what I knew.  There's a limit to how much my brain will process nowadays.
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petslave
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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2008, 04:25:29 PM »

Here are part of the results from that Excel spreadsheet calcs for my 70 lb dog (there are many other numbers, but too long to post them all) - some of this is useful, like the Vit A & D requirements, and if the multi had too much iron:

CALORIES   1741.61   kcal
         
Minerals         
Calcium*                1741.61   mg
Phosphorus   1339.70   mg
Potassium   1875.58   mg
Sodium                351.00   mg
Chloride      535.88   mg
Magnesium   263.92   mg
Iron*      13.40   mg
Copper*      2.68   mg
Manganese*   2.14   mg
Zinc*      26.79   mg
Iodine      396.55   mcg
Selenium   mcg   158.08   mcg
         
Vitamins         
A (RE)      669.85   RE   (have to convert to IU's)
D      6.03   mcg
E      13.40   mg
K      0.72   mg
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lesliek
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« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2008, 05:04:39 PM »

petslave is that daily or with a certain amount of meat ?
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petslave
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« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2008, 09:28:59 PM »

Really cool storage system, Don!  I bought a bunch of those cheap Glad storage containers, but with all the curved corners, there is a lot of wasted space in the freezer.  This would really pack everything to min size.

lesliek - those are the daily requirements of each supplement for a "standard" dog of that weight.  Kind of like the column on the vitamin pill container, recommended daily requirements. 
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kaffe
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« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2008, 10:38:10 PM »

why, Don... I'm impressed!  I also use ziplock sandwich bags but instead of packing them neatly in a cardboard box like you do, I put them all in a bigger plastic bag with a lose label of the recipe --- your system is a lot neater than mine!   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  Freezing home made petfood in ziplock baggies also make it all that much easier to thaw out.
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kaffe
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« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2008, 10:49:35 PM »

Petslave:  what is "RE" that you need to cnvert to "IU"?  INternational Units (IU) is a measure of potency that's why there is no standard conversion to mg or mcg.  But I found this a little while ago when immersed in making my very confused charts:



1.  Vitamin A and B-carotene
IU x 0.3 = ug (micrograms - the "u" is really the Greek letter "mu")
ug x 3.33 = IUs
Conversion example:  700 ug of vitamin A multiplied by 3.33 equals 2333 IU of vitamin A

2.  Vitamin D
IU x 0.025 = ug
g x 40 = IU
Conversion example:  5 ug of vitamin D multiplied by 40 equals 200 IU of vitamin D

3.  Vitamin E (natural source - i.e. d-alpha tocopherol)
IU x 0.67 = mg (milligrams)
mg x 1.49 = IU
Conversion example:  15 mg of natural vitamin E multiplied by 1.49 equals 22 IU of natural vitamin E

4.  Vitamin E (Synthetic source - i.e. dl-alpha tocopherol)
IU x 0.45 = mg
mg x 2.22 = IU
Conversion example:  15 mg of synthetic vitamin E multiplied by 2.22 equals 33 IU of synthetic vitamin E


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lesliek
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« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2008, 05:56:31 AM »

Don- I will have to try the box idea,it would take up a lot less room than the containers. Kaffe -Thanks for the conversion chart.
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