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Author Topic: ... consequences associated w foodborne pathogens & feeding of raw meat  (Read 5317 times)
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3catkidneyfailure
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« on: November 02, 2009, 09:51:05 AM »

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2684052/?tool=pubmed

Perceptions, practices, and consequences associated with foodborne pathogens and the feeding of raw meat to dogs
Can Vet J. 2009 June; 50(6): 637–643.  PMCID: PMC2684052
Copyright and/or publishing rights held by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association

Not trying to offend raw pet feeders, dog or cat, because at this point I don't believe lots of commercial or improperly made
cooked homemade pet food is completely safe either. Just posting a zoonotic disease warning from one of the few scientific studies
I have come across on the topic of raw feeding to dogs and possible consequences to humans around them.

So perhaps those with experience in raw feeding could post their most common safety practices to prevent disease transmission
to pets and/or humans for those considering or experimenting with raw feeding because obviously there is some possibility of
disease transmission here which needs to be carefully guarded against.
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lesliek
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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 05:22:28 PM »

If you are careful about washing up,there is no more risk than making a meatloaf or handling raw poultry for dinner. Everything I use that can go in the dw gets washed with the sanitize cycle. Anything that can't go in gets a little bleach added to the dish soap. I always serve their raw on paper lunch sized plates & throw them away immediately after & never keep raw food in the fridge. Its always frozen until serving time. I also freeze all meats for us or them for 3 weeks to help kill any germs or parasites. Even if its going to be cooked.
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3catkidneyfailure
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 05:33:30 PM »

Thanks very much, lesliek, especially for the 3 week freezing tip. E. coli doesn't look like it's transmitted often with normal household
precautions if I read that abstract correctly. But Salmonella strains and camphyrlo (sorry, spelling fails me) [campylobacter jejuni] looks like it could be.
So does freezing knock those off to the best of your knowledge if you have that knowledge?

« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 05:36:37 PM by 3catkidneyfailure » Logged
mainecoonpeg
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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 05:48:58 PM »

Thank you very much for this 3cat and leslie.

I too learned the 3 week freezing tip awhile back and have been using that .

Leslie, I have a question.

You "never keep raw food in the fridge".  When you say the food is kept frozen until serving time, I'm guessing you don't feed frozen food?
How do you present it?  How do you thaw it?  Will your furkids eat it very cold?

I apologize for the idiotic and annoying questions. Embarrassed
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Mandycat
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« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2009, 07:18:32 PM »

Regarding freezing meat to kill bacteria, an article that I previously posted in the Raw Feeding for Cats thread had this statement:

     "Many raw food proponents theorize that freezing meat will kill bacteria. Not so. Laboratories preserve bacteria and viruses by freezing them. Cooking meat is the best way to eliminate the potential for illness."

               http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FKA/is_6_67/ai_n13788104/


I really don't know what is true, but just wanted to mention it for those who did not see it in the other thread.

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Auntie Crazy
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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2009, 07:31:46 PM »

Thanks for posting this, 3Cat!

It's clear (to me, anyway) that they went into this either attempting to prove raw was dangerous or, at a minimum, expecting it to be so. This paragraph made me laugh: "Furthermore, the perceived disease prevention and treatment effects (empowerment) that raw food provided was a stronger rationale for dietary selection among those who fed raw meat than among those who did not include raw meats in their pet’s diet...However, because of the affective and ideological components involved in the choice to feed raw meat, even the most comprehensive scientific review will not persuade all owners to change their feeding practices."

Basically, raw feeders are not of sound mind and even "the most comprehensive scientific review" will not cause us to change or doubt that a raw diet is healthiest for our pets.  Cheesy

Even with this bias, though, the study doesn't prove that raw fed dogs are any more dangerous to our health than kibble-fed dogs (leaving aside for now all the recent kibble-cause Salmonella poisonings): "In this study, although dogs that were fed raw meat were more likely to shed Salmonella in their feces than dogs that were not, Salmonella may contaminate the household environment and serve as a source of Salmonella exposure to humans in households with dogs, regardless of the diet fed." (emphasis mine)

Nor could they positively identify the raw food as the source for the Salmonella: "In this study, although RMF dogs were more frequent carriers of Salmonella, it was not possible to unequivocally implicate the raw foods as the source of the Salmonella in either the dogs or the environment."

This study is definitely a solid reminder though, that for all the good raw foods do for our pets, there is still, due to agricultural processing practices, the potential for illness among human family members. I get the feeling every now and again that the defensiveness so often provoked in raw feeders tempts them (us) to sometimes discount all negative aspects of raw feeding, and that's just dangerous.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 08:29:05 PM by Auntie Crazy » Logged

AC & Crew: Allen, Rachel, Meghan, Spencer, Heather & Ralph

CatCentric.org
: Raw feeding, feline nutrition & related health blog, article and resource site.
3catkidneyfailure
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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2009, 07:41:57 PM »

I think we agree, Auntie Crazy, that being aware and engaging in best safe practices is a good idea for all forms of pet and human food.
I also agree, AC, that this study has a seeming bias not in favor of raw food.

I was not attempting to set off the usual explosion on raw feeding or cooked homemade or commercial. Just pointing out some
of the little research I've actually seen on the subject, and this certainly is the most recent. There are other studies in the
abstract references which I haven't reviewed at all.

Mandy, I asked the question of a tweeter with a scientific background in food safety on Twitter whether freezing kills any food pathogens. The almost immediate response was no, just allows the pathogens to hang out with the possible exception of
pork Trichina. If freezing were a magic bullet to kill pathogens, all meat would be frozen. So this gentleman from academia agrees
with your position totally. And I'm no scientist either. Just asked one and got the response that freezing is not a food safety intervention. We all know science evolves and changes, but that seems to be scientific opinion right now.

Anyway, I'm a raw feeding learner at this point and appreciate everyone's point of view.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 07:49:25 PM by 3catkidneyfailure » Logged
Auntie Crazy
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 08:03:50 PM »

I'm loving all these studies posted lately. The deeper I get into researching all the ramifications/aspects of raw feeding, the more I crave hard science.

There seem to be some fairly decent studies out there, but I keep running into the "pay to view full text" abstracts. It's a bit frustrating and I'm about at the point were I WILL pay to view. I want to know, darnnit!!  Cheesy Grin Cheesy
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AC & Crew: Allen, Rachel, Meghan, Spencer, Heather & Ralph

CatCentric.org
: Raw feeding, feline nutrition & related health blog, article and resource site.
lesliek
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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 08:04:06 PM »

I wish freezing did affect all contaminates, but really it will only kill parasites & help with some surface germs. Still its better than nothing so I do it. I also wash meat [I buy large cuts & butcher &/or grind it myself]. Raw I keep frozen until defrosting in the microwave, I know that can cause problems too but less than letting the food sit to defrost. Cooked I usually take out 1-2 days ahead & put in the fridge [small containers 1 day, large containers for the big dogs 2 days]. I always warm their food slightly if cooked & just get raw to a non frozen but still cool state. They like their cooked food prey [body]temp,but I'm a little leary of heating raw that much so its served a little cooler.
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petslave
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« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 08:22:44 PM »

Now they need to run that study on dogs eating dry dog foods, or eating pig ears, smoked bones or bully sticks.

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Spartycats
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2009, 05:41:11 AM »

Has anyone used Citrox, or do you have an opinion of it?

http://www.wysonghealth.net/products/documents/monographs/CITROX.pdf

http://www.citrox.net/applications.php
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Mark T
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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2009, 07:12:46 AM »

Thank you 3cat for providing this link. Please note under " Footnotes" that funding for this research was provided, in part, by Nestlé Purina’s Veterinary Student Summer Research Grant Program.

Theoretically this should have no affect on the study, but from studies I have been involved in it often does by affecting the structure of the study.

edited to add:

I am still very much on the fence as regards raw feeding and would love to read a well executed study. But this was not the one:

Under the results they say Campylobacter jejuni was isolated from the feces of one dog out of 42 but no raw samples tested positive for C. jejuni. E-coli O157 was NOT recovered from any fecal or raw food sample. (emphasis mine)

They spin this to later say: "The low prevalence of Campylobacter spp. and E. coli O157 identified in the fecal samples cultured in this study precluded drawing conclusions on the impact of raw meat feeding on the prevalence of these pathogens in dogs."  (low prevalence? it was 1/42 not even statistically relevant)

This reads to me as though they set out wanting to find high levels of contamination. Otherwise, why not say: From the low prevalence of Campylobacter spp. and E. coli O157 identified in the fecal samples cultured in this study we concluded there is no negative impact of these pathogens from feeding raw meat to dogs."

Also they do not address source of bacterial contamination, it is assumed that the meat was the source. Other factors that influenced outcome are not addressed either.



« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 08:13:31 AM by Mark T » Logged
lesliek
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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2009, 07:43:43 AM »

I haven't used citrox,but it sounds fine. You can do the same thing by adding a few drops of grapefruit seed oil to baking soda & water though. For produce with a skin like apples just wet your hand & rub the fruit with baking soda. Mixing your own in an empty spray bottle has to be cheaper than buying any type ready made. The exact amounts are on here somewhere,I'll look for it.
ETA here it is http://itchmoforums.com/recall-nonpet-food/ot-veggie-wash-new-info-added-t5198.0.html
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 07:46:54 AM by lesliek » Logged

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Spartycats
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« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2009, 08:11:47 AM »

Thank you for the link, Leslie.

I was a little vague in my post. I was wondering if any raw feeders were using Citrox to treat the meat (soak in water with Citrox), or what they thought about that. 
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3catkidneyfailure
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« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2009, 10:48:39 AM »

This is a talking-point start to assist with understanding basic raw pet food safety. Those of you who have done it
and are pleased with your pets' response are a great help to those who haven't!!!

I'm annoyed with the pay-per views, too. It would sure help to be able to read everything known by science on companion
animal nutrition, since there's definitely not enough unbiased research in my opinion.

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