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Author Topic: Calcium Options for cooked meat diet  (Read 5320 times)
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GKit
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« on: February 10, 2012, 12:12:25 PM »

Hi again, everyone! Gypsy and I are back with a food issue since her allergies/intolerance are still, well, an issue.  Does anyone have any experience or suggestions about supplementing calcium to a home cooked meat diet?  She is allergic/intolerant of egg, plus she is on famotidine (on/off) for nausea.  We had her on Ziwipeak venison wet food which she did well on, except for a persistent itch and heavy ear wax buildup which the vets think is food-allergy related. Again.  Sad  Some of you may remember the list of things Gypsy is does not tolerate is kind of long, unfortunately. Right now I have her on chicken/pumpkin/taurine/B1/Miralax on the days when she needs famotidine, and am shifting over to whole raw rabbit on the days when she isn't on famotidine.  I have tried eggshell calcium (allergy), calcium carbonate (gas), calcium citrate (taste issues sometimes; and not sure if it will irritate her stomach now).  I looked at bone meal, but it seems like that is from cows, and she is allergic to beef and I doubt the material is going to be protein free.  Would something like coral calcium be all that different from regular powdered calcium carbonate when coral calcium is mostly calcium carbonate?  She also periodically has constipation, which makes the calcium carbonate a little scary for us, although she has been much better about that since we took her off the probiotics.  

The other bit I am having trouble with is trying to get essential fatty acids into her, since she does not tolerate fish either.  I have read that flaxseed oil does nothing for cats, but is some better than none?  Is molecular distillation effective at making a fish oil acceptable to highly sensitized individuals?

Any help and ideas would be greatly appreciated.   
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 12:20:51 PM by GKit » Logged
mikken
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 01:08:31 PM »

If the raw rabbit has bone in it and you're feeding that a few times a week, you should be ok, calcium-wise.

As for omega 3's, any fat from pastured meats will supply it - lamb, goat, etc.
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petslave
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2012, 01:22:03 PM »

If you can get a copy of Dr. Pitcairn's book, he has a good chart in there for the different forms of calcium you can use in home made pet food and how much are needed for each form.  That might help in choosing something.

You might try butter for the EFA's.  Organic pasture butter has a lot more EFA's than regular butter.  This is a recipe for a renal diet, but has info on using butter in homemade food:

http://rawmeatcatfood.com/2010/08/12/reducing-protein/
 
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lesliek
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2012, 03:56:45 PM »

Can Gypsy eat salmon ? The small bones in canned salmon are soft & break up or grind easily for calcium. Don't use the spine except for large dogs, it won't grind & has to be fed whole. If you want to pm me your email address, I can send you the calcium chart if you don't have Dr Pitcairn's book. A lot of frozen & freeze dried foods use the bones from the protein in it for calcium, as long as the raw has it & is at least 1/2 of Gypsy's diet you should be ok only adding it occasionally to the cooked food. Also cheese can be used if Gypsy can eat that.
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GKit
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2012, 05:59:05 PM »

I am giving her whole ground raw rabbit with bones, so it's a great relief to me to know I don't have to get the calcium into every meal right now. Whew. That takes the pressure off because I was about to climb a wall.  I'm going to have to keep working at getting a cooked recipe developed, because the last couple years have taught me it's a good idea to have a backup plan when the primary food falls out of favor for whatever reason. (Gypsy's argument is that she would do just fine catching mice on her own, thank you.  Roll Eyes)

I'm also thinking I might try making some bone meal powder from chicken bones, if anyone has any experience on how to use that?

mikken-- I can get my hands on pasture fed lamb and maybe grass fed venison meat, which I can chunk up and add. Awesome, because I was really stumped.

petslave-- I'm not sure if she can have butter, but that goes on the list to try.  Are EFAs destroyed by heat?  I was thinking I would have a better chance at avoiding a reaction if I clarified the butter.

lesliek-- Sadly salmon is a tried and test no-go. Not sure about cheese. Would goat cheese do? Because she's highly sensitive to beef, I've been avoiding cow products a rule although it's not entirely logical because she doesn't seem to be allergic to milk (according to test results, at any rate). 
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lesliek
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2012, 06:23:21 PM »

Goat cheese is actually a better choice for us, cats & dogs. The same for goats milk. Another way to get some calcium as well as other minerals is to make homemade stock from bones & add it when making the cooked or raw diet. You can also put out bowls of it to drink. Just buy any type of bones with the meat Gypsy can tolerate & cook in enough water to cover the bones + a few inches extra. Bring to a boil & cover & turn down to a simmer for a few hours. Remove bones to a strainer & when slightly cooled pull off any meat for your food. Chop the bones with a cleaver or heavy knife to put some knicks in them & return to the broth, add 1/4-1/2 tsp lemon juice, white or apple cider vinegar. Return to a boil & turn down to a simmer , covered. Continue cooking for at least 12 hours or up to 48.You can use a crock pot for this too. The bones should be fairly soft & the stock rich. Drain the bones & return the drained stock to the pot, pour into bowls or containers & refridgerate until the fat rises as a solid. Skim most [3/4 ] of the fat & put in covered freezer safe containers. Preferably no more than you will use in 3-4 days should be in the refridgerator, the rest frozen. The stock should be almost a gelatinous consistency when cold. Don't feed the bones , all the minerals & calcium should be leached out into the stock. Try to get local or organic bones if possible. If you know any hunters, ask them for deer legs or other bony parts they don't use. Also ask your butcher for unused meaty bones.
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mikken
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2012, 07:56:43 PM »

Gkit,

Not to gross you out, but have you thought about feeding her mice?  Lots of us feed "whole prey" and that includes mice, quail, chicks, etc.  It's excellent for dental health (and whole body health!) and delivers nutrients in one neat little package.

The down side is when your kid is looking for something in the fridge and you have to tell them that it's on the second shelf, behind the plate of guinea pigs....
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GKit
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2012, 11:34:23 PM »

mikken, where does one get good mice? Do they come frozen?  I have actually thought about this before, but we just didn't know where to get "reliable, quality" mice, if that's the right description.  I know Petco has feeder mice for reptiles, but I'm a little leery of buying mice from such a large outfit.  Just have to remember not direct any guests to the fridge, I suppose. Smiley

Lesliek, I am already making chicken stock for her, so that's an easy option for me just to expand the process. Yay. 
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Auntie Crazy
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 10:40:38 PM »

Gkit,

Not to gross you out, but have you thought about feeding her mice?  Lots of us feed "whole prey" and that includes mice, quail, chicks, etc.  It's excellent for dental health (and whole body health!) and delivers nutrients in one neat little package.

The down side is when your kid is looking for something in the fridge and you have to tell them that it's on the second shelf, behind the plate of guinea pigs....

LOL!! That is awesome and I can so totally relate.


mikken, where does one get good mice? Do they come frozen?  I have actually thought about this before, but we just didn't know where to get "reliable, quality" mice, if that's the right description.  I know Petco has feeder mice for reptiles, but I'm a little leery of buying mice from such a large outfit.  Just have to remember not direct any guests to the fridge, I suppose. Smiley

Lesliek, I am already making chicken stock for her, so that's an easy option for me just to expand the process. Yay. 

Hare-Today has some whole prey products and a decent reputation. RodentPro, Layne Labs and Mice Direct also have fairly good reputations for clean, well-cared for whole prey products.

Best regards!

AC
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GKit
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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2012, 08:15:29 PM »

This might be a stupid question, but are the thawing and maximum time-to-leave-out rules the same for frozen whole prey as they are for ground raw meat?
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lesliek
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 07:20:13 AM »

I've never used the frozen mice, but imagine its the same. For frozen raw, I usually move it to the fridge late the night before & use the next day only.
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GKit
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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2012, 05:29:45 PM »

lesliek, for the boney-stock where the minerals are leached into the stock, do you have a rule of thumb for how much you use so you're not giving too much calcium (assuming feeding meat only)? Or is it so dilute it doesn't matter? 
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lesliek
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Trooper,Remy & Fragile


« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2012, 06:16:26 AM »

I usually add about a Tbsp to each of the cats food when I feed them. 2 Tbsp to Fragile's [30 lbs] & 4 to Trooper's [70 lbs]. I was giving some just to drink also, but Trooper's calcium was a little high on his last bloodwork so I stopped doing that unless they weren't eating due to illness. That could also have been us giving him his pills in cheese, but I wanted to be safe. If they are drinking it, don't add it to the food, or vice versa. Mine eat 2 meals a day, so get it twice daily + snacks several times without it.
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GKit
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2012, 05:11:18 PM »

Thanks!  It's a lot more concentrated than I had imagined.  It really is the best option for us so far, since my first attempt at making chicken bone meal powder was a bust (too much oil left on the bones!). 
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