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Author Topic: Michigan State Response  (Read 9059 times)
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Donna
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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2007, 06:22:47 AM »

Ammelide and ammeline are both derivatives of melamine, as is cyanuric acid, and I found this out when researching melamine months and months ago.  What is more interesting, is the fact that the FDA is aware of the chemical breakdown of melamine into these dangerous separate compounds, and allows a certain percentage quantity within their law by means of the infamous dilution factor.

Several months ago, I continued my research because, to be frank, I was so f'ing tired of being blindly led around by the FDA as it related to pet feed, and the amounts of recalls regarding human food were mounting, especially as they related to pathogens.  I wanted to be certain I named the proper chemicals in the feed, in addition to the pathogen, time frame, company, procedure, etc. concerning human food, because if the desire is to have pet feed somewhat equivalent to that of human grade food and quality, the human food chain must be adjusted accordingly to produce safer foods.  In that time, I found what appears to be the FDA's "gospel" concerning melamine and its components entitled, Interim Melamine and Analogues Safety/Risk Assessment, May 24, 2007 http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/98fr/07n-0208-ra00001.pdf.  The report is a little lengthy, but if one goes to pages 9-12, the breakdown of melamine is there.

As well, if one researches herbicides and fertilizers, melamine is rather key and always breaks down to cyanuric acid, ammeline and ammelide, in addition to triazines.  Of more interest though, is the fact that a conversion of urea (lo and behold) is what produces melamine, in addition to its various manufacturing waste byproducts of ammonia and carbon dioxide http://www.patentopedia.us/bolt_frame_construction/utilization_melamine_waste_effluent.html http://las.perkinelmer.com/content/applicationnotes/APP_MelamineAdulterationScreeningInFoodsGCMS.pdf.

Add to the above, this March 30, 2007 article entitled, Pick Your Poison: Pet Recall Investigation Turns Up New Contaminant Chemical used to make plastics is found in recalled food and sick animals, By Nikhil Swaminathan, which states a New York lab "found high concentrations of aminopterin (a rat poison) in samples from over 60 million cans and pouches of moist meals recalled earlier this month by Canadian company Menu Foods." and I would say the fifth element is identified. 

I named these dangers in my most recent letter to the FDA, FSIS, USDA & HHS, but as usual, I received no response and don't expect to.

Sincerely,
Donna

~ The dead cannot cry out for justice; it is a duty of the living to do so for them ~
    Lois McMaster Bujold, 2002 Diplomatic Immunity, US Science Fiction Author
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JustMe
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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2007, 11:37:20 AM »

Not sure if we already have these links posted.  If so, let me know and I'll delete my post.


Audio about Perkin Elmer's melamine analyzer.  Wait for audio to start.

http://wbz.com/pages/304252.php?url=http://wbz.everyzing.com/viewMedia.jsp?q=%22pet+food%22&start=0&num=2&col=en-aud-pod_wbz-ep&filter=1&dedupe=1&expand=true&match=QUERY&e=12505249&il=en&index=1

http://las.perkinelmer.com/News/News+Details/10182007c.htm

http://las.perkinelmer.com/Catalog/FamilyPage.htm?CategoryID=Melamine+Analyzer
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BruinMike
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« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2008, 05:30:03 PM »

Thanks for the posting on the melamine analyzer.

But with Don's and Donna's posting, I still have a couple of
questions.

At one point, I was looking into MOTIVE.

WhyWhy would anyone contaminate the wheat gluten
with melamine and cyanuric acid?


Upon consulting with the State of Texas, Dept. of Chemistry,
I got a real education.

The test that is currently used to determine the protein
content of wheat gluten relies on the gluten emitting nitrogen
gas when tested. The more nitrogen gas emitted, the higher
the tested protein levels. Guess what else emits high levels
of nitrogen gas under the same test scenario? Yep, melamine.

SO, the reason that melamine was added was to get higher
test results and get more money for their wheat gluten.
There's the MOTIVE..

Because I had seen so many of Don's postings regarding
acetaminophen, I asked the Dept. of Chemistry the same
question.

Why would anyone contaminate pet food with acetaminophen?
The chemist told me that he couldn't come up with a MOTIVE.

Please note that he was not denying Expertox's results. He couldn't.
He asked me if we could get duplicate samples for the State of Texas
to test, but as yet I've been unable.


He also expressed questions about how could such large amounts
of acetaminophen be introduced.
He told me that he didn't know
how anyone would benefit from this.

I would like to get back to them on this issue. I'll be meeting with
them at the end of the month.

I would greatly appreciate any input as to:

1. WHY would someone introduce acetaminophen?

2. HOW would it be introduced?

3. Can samples be obtained for cross-testing?

Thanks all,

Mike
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straybaby
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« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2008, 05:44:35 PM »

1. WHY would someone introduce acetaminophen? possibly didn't know. it's a white powder right? and we all know that china supplies lots of *nutrients*, vitamins, *natural* supplements, and protein concentrates. look how long it took them to figure out that the wheat gluten wasn't in fact wheat gluten, but flour! FDA just issued a recall of *enhancement* supplements from China because they actually contained the active ingredient of viagra. it would be interesting to see what other things could be found in our food and drugs since most of it isn't tested to look for odd additions. that's the only reason they found the acetaminophen, was by running a general test, right?

2. HOW would it be introduced? i'm guessing it was mixed in with something else, not pure. unless of course that was the killer all along . . .
(no, i don't have trust issues! Shocked )
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lesliek
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« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2008, 05:48:41 PM »

Lets not forget the other possibility. A lot of pf now contains gluc/chondroiten for joint aches. Acetaminophen would create short term relief & be a lot cheaper. Especially if it was the old recalled stuff being found a new home. I obviously have a few trust issues myself !
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straybaby
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« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2008, 05:52:14 PM »

i thought of that, but the foods are generally labeled with the slightest spec of supplements in them so they can market it and charge more. and no, i'm not jaded either  Tongue
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Cathy
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« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2008, 10:00:32 PM »

Good manufacturing practices in China are almost non-existent.  Add to that, many non-educated workers on the job for way too many hours. Many of the plants switch manufacturing from one product to another and you can bet the equipment is not cleaned in between if they are trying to meet deadlines.  Remember the DuPont Benylate thing years ago - they subcontracted to a manufacturer who didn't clean the equipment before they made the product and thousands of acres of crops died.  Now - that happened with all of the regulations we have in the US.  Imagine what's going on in a country with virtually no regulations.  It would be interesting to see a video of how acetaminophen is made. There are hoods, filtration systems, air handlers, etc. to handle residual powder.  If any of these are not working properly and/or not cleaned between runs ... Can you imagine all of the white powder flying around before it is formed into tablets?   That's my opinion on how the acetaminophen got in the food and why it's not showing up regularly.   

As for most of the other crap, that was just someone using cheap materials to save money and we'll probably never know for sure who made those decisions, but I would guess alot more people knew about it than will admit to it.  It all comes down to greed. 
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BruinMike
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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2008, 10:09:39 PM »

Hi Straybaby and LeslieK,

Maybe it comes from watching too much "Law and Order", but
the old adage of "follow the money" usually works. In a case
like this, the motive for the contamination usually is the dollar.

Thanks for the info. I hadn't thought of acetaminophen being
substituted for other, more expensive additives.

That, of course, would mean that any contamination of
the pet food would have occurred at the time of manufacture,
and was not in the wheat gluten. That, of course, would
lead to direct culpability by Menu Foods, not the indirect
type they claim as a result of contaminated gluten.

There are far too many test results showing the melamine
and the cyanuric acid for anyone to doubt that it, at the
very least, was one of the causes of death. The addition
of possible acetaminophen to this nasty cocktail would
be criminal.

I still have some frozen samples of what my dog ate. I'll
submit them to the State of Texas for testing. Let's see
what they come up with.

I have talked to several people who submitted samples to
Equinox. The State of Texas Dept. of Chemistry says that
they could not provide quantified test results or verifiable
joint samples to cross-test.

Have either of you heard of what PPM were discovered by
Expertox? The people I talked to said that they were not
provided with the actual test results, but just the phrases
"significant levels" or "confirmed presence". Obviously, the
actual numbers are necessary for confirmed cross-testing.

Also, does anyone have access to the kind of samples
that the State of Texas wants? In laymen's terms, they
want a piece of the sample that Expertox tested.

As you know, cross-testing is an absolutely necessary
part of the scientific process. All scientific results must be
repeatable to have validity. If we could get the actual
test results and a sample we could cross-test, then we
could really put a nail in the pet food companies coffin.


As for Cathy's belief that acetaminophen could have been
introduced from unsafe production standards, this is entirely
plausible. In order to verify this, it would sure be helpful
to know if the same factory was involved, OR if the wheat
gluten was shipped with raw acetaminophen powder. What
we would need is some kind of proof, and that's going to
be damn hard to get.


Let me know,

Thanks,

Mike
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JanC
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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2008, 07:58:56 AM »

I just read lesliek's post & this one gave me pause.......I have always felt that APAP was introduced intentionally as a substitute for something more expensive.  Never thought about "short-term relief" from joint pain but that makes sense to me.

One of the pf companies, not sure which but maybe Natures Logic, mentioned that they don't use "synthetic vitamins" from China.......that also made me sit up & take notice.  I have been saying for a long time now that I had a very bad feeling about the vitamin mix from China that was being added to most pf & probably w/o any testing.  Something (gut instinct perhaps) tells me that it has to be a common ingredient that the majority of pf companies use & that led me back to vitamins.  After we've been kicking this around for months, here's hoping that the pf companies are testing ANY & ALL ingredients from China.

I'm angry & scared that another round of this contaminated pf or treats will wipe out the rest of our pets.  I'm primarily home cooking but I do use small amounts of dry & canned along w/Missing Link to (hopefully) get her vitamins right.  Even a small amount of pf scares me to death.

Mike:  I think you're wonderful doing what you've been doing.  Sure wish I'd found your website during the recalls but I recently found it when I read your posts here.  I think all of us working together has started to make a difference.....it'll take years to undo what has become "business as usual".  The more the pf sits on shelves & doesn't sell, the more a company has to try something different.....hopefully more wholesome ingredients.

Between you, Don Earl & the go-getters from Itchmo, we will make a difference.

 Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy 
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3catkidneyfailure
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« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2008, 10:55:33 AM »

Long, long time ago, and I can't find it on the forum threads, someone advanced a theory that
acetaminophen was used as a buffer for food grade hydrogen peroxide in the cleaning process of machinery
between batch runs. I can't make this stuff up because I wouldn't know how. I had to have read it.
Anyone remember that theory? 
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straybaby
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« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2008, 11:30:58 AM »

Mike,

i watch too much law and order also! lol!~ sadly, i think we may have many money trails. between PF companies looking for cheap ingredients, back alley deals between the Chinese, ingredient substitutions (remember the RPC in Natural Balance GRAIN FREE!) and what ever else they could think of. and there's prob a few doses of less than standard manufacturing practices (cross contamination on machines that should have been cleaned between runs). seems that everyone was sitting back counting their money and nobody was watching the process . . . .

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see something wrong with the vitamin mixes coming out of China. Chem Nutra was importing  quite a bit from them. they bragged they were one of the leading importers on their website. i stopped all supplements the minute ChemNutra's name was released and i checked their site (which they changed the next day! thanks to google archives, we could still see their import history) i wish we could see paper trails on the ingredients that are being used. . . .
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Carol
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« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2008, 11:31:50 AM »

3cat,

I found this so far but I'll keep looking for more info.


http://itchmoforums.com/pet-food-testing/test-results-thread-2-t1928.0.html;msg28945#msg28945

http://itchmoforums.com/news-recall-related/problems-w-innova-and-test-results-t1028.0.html;msg19618#msg19618
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 11:34:36 AM by Carol » Logged

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JanC
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2008, 02:19:53 PM »

Klondike:

My only thoughts on why they don't want to go public about APAP is that they don't know how to explain how this got into the food.  They blamed the gluten problem on China & it probably was but I think the APAP may have been done here.  Seems to me that Don Earl had a theory that made a lot of sense to me......I'll try to find it & repost......or Don, if you read this, please repost.  Like I said earlier, this old brain is on tilt but I still get little bits & pieces of things I remember from a few months back.  Does that mean there's hope for me yet? Roll Eyes

Fat chance....... Tongue
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Trudy
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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2008, 05:22:15 PM »

I know for a fact that the herbs that come from China are poison. I spent 3 days in the ICU because of it. so why not the vitamins? The ingrediant could be something that people take, and no one wants to talk about.
And speaking of a new recall- My husband bought what He thought was a new dog food. This has made one of our dogs sick for 3 nights in a row, [In My opinion.] He has gotten out of bed and thrown up every night. Doesn't that sound strange. It's not new, i don't think, just the label is changed.
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