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shibadiva
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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2007, 06:33:02 PM » |
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 03:39:37 PM by shibadiva »
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A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history. ~~ Gandhi
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moonbeam
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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2007, 10:07:19 AM » |
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It's totally insane to kill off the wolves. I signed the petition. I have a book (first edition) about when the government was killing the wolves and there was this one very very smart wolf that just refused to be killed. It's a haunting and sad story written by the man in charge of finding the wolf and killing him.
Wolves are very smart and quite resourceful and figure stuff out quickly - hopefully they will outsmart these gun crazed Republicans.
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DMS
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2008, 12:04:18 PM » |
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There is an update in the LA Times on the wolves: http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/scimedemail/la-na-wolves25jan25,0,7313959.story"The shame of it is we spent so much time and effort trying to recover wolves, and were within spitting distance of recovery," said Doug Honnold, managing attorney for the Northern Rockies office of Earthjustice, a nonprofit law firm. "But instead of securing those recovery gains and building on them, Fish and Wildlife Services is throwing them away. . . . They want the right to kill wolves willy-nilly." Currently, gray wolves cannot be killed unless they are preying on livestock or on a dog on private property, or are the main culprit behind dwindling populations of animals such as deer, elk and moose. The rule change issued Thursday would ease the burden of proof to justify a wolf kill. State agencies would only need to show that wolf predation had been one factor among others for a decreasing population of ungulates, such as elk, deer or moose. A wolf threatening a dog also could be killed. None of the rule provisions apply to wolves within national parks or outside central Idaho and the greater Yellowstone area. ====================== I can understand the fear of being personally attacked by a wolf or the economic consequence of losing livestock. I wonder how common wolf attacks on humans are. But the unprovoked killing of wolves seems too much like hunting dogs to me. Man wants to be the only predator. If deer, elk, and moose are allowed to overpopulate without natural predators, we can more easily justify killing them as well. But, I guess further complicating things, is the fact that the wolves' range is limited and they are very successfully reproducing. So their populations are getting out of control, too. We are finally running out of space, people. Even the magnificent elephants and other large wildlife of Africa, Asia, and the Americas are increasingly unable to migrate and claim the territory they need to survive. These splendid creatures are being relegated to large zoo-like habitats where they can live only psuedo-naturally in diminishing habitats. I believe we will see the extinction of many free-roaming large mammals in my children's lifetimes. It is very sad, indeed.
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 12:38:41 PM by DMS »
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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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petslave
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2008, 12:36:54 PM » |
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People killed off all the big carnivores here a 100 years ago so they wouldn't eat us or kill our livestock. Nothing has changed in the general human population's psyche between now & then, so I don't know why people wanting to reintroduce them think it will work this time around.
All they are doing is trying to create little islands of wild where we can all go gawk at the wild wolves, buffalo, etc. & imagine what it used to be like. Just like a zoo without walls, then when they get out of hand, the scary bad predators (or buffalo 'threatening' our cattle with brucellosis, etc.) get shot & killed.
I've heard natural resource managers here in the northwest drooling over getting the big bucks that came with listing the chinook salmon. These gov. 'ecosystem restorers' are often just as much a part of the greed system in this country as the big corps.
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SusanP
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2008, 12:55:30 PM » |
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So then, WTF are we supposed to do? Is having hunters kill the deer better? Why is extinction a better proposition? Rather than saying what's wrong, can you give some ideas regarding solutions? Are we as humans and our livestock more important?
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petslave
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2008, 01:06:52 PM » |
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That wasn't my point. My point was that most of these plans are set up with little forethought on the results, and more on how to spend the money, which dept will get it, etc.
A lot of people have predicted that this type of thing will happen with all big predator reintroductions since attitudes have not changed. Now we have a bunch of innocent wolves out there doing what they are supposed to be doing & they will get killed because of it. There has been talk for years of reintroducing grizzlies in the mountains in the area where I live. Very very bad idea. You can't reintroduce these animals into this world we have created & expect it not to go badly.
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sharky
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2008, 01:10:17 PM » |
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Poco
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2008, 01:53:32 PM » |
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sharky, it sounds like you are saying that your state's governor wants to be one of the first to kill a wolf? Very sad if he/she considers that to be a sport. Petslave, I know what you mean. It is like HUD or the World Bank being set up to help lower income or poor people and then the mission being subverted. I don't know if there is a solution to the world's most dangerous animal managing the rest. I'm still hoping that we are at a low point and though it will never be a Utopia, things can get a bit more hopeful. http://www.lasatergrasslandsbeef.com/HistoryPhilosophy.htmlWe have been ranching for more than a century, looking at our surroundings holistically instead of in parts. One of the most valuable lessons we’ve learned is that everything in Nature has a purpose... the ant, prairie dog, the coyote, the porcupine... This lesson governs every aspect of our business. We refuse to compromise when it comes to Nature–in a very real sense, she is our most valued business partner and the source of our business philosophy. Everything has its purpose, and it takes time to get results when you are on our mother's schedule.http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/holycow/grassfed.htmlStill, Groves is optimistic. "I think this may be the beginning of a revolution where people examine the evidence and make better choices for themselves and their families," she says. "Ultimately, I believe this movement will benefit independent family producers, such as grassfed producers, who are more closely connected to the food they produce." Maybe spending money on good to the earth food is better than spending money on big government....at least some balance of the two?
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Hope my eye gets better soon!
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sharky
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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2008, 01:55:05 PM » |
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YES he was ON NATIONAL TV saying how he wanted to kill a wolf.. 
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DMS
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« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2008, 02:20:20 PM » |
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" I don't know if there is a solution to the world's most dangerous animal managing the rest."
Klondike, that was a great point!! And perhaps there is still room for optimism. Some of us are finally getting it.
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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Trudy
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2008, 02:58:46 PM » |
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Kill, Kill Kill, that's all this administration wants to do. I signed all. This is just crazy.
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petslave
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2008, 04:57:42 PM » |
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I also think & hope we are at the low point & on the way up. It does seem like more people are getting angry at the way things are going in this country, and there are a lot of good people out there doing their part, like that rancher.
I read a good book awhile back on endangered species recovery programs & how badly they are set up & run. I just wonder if some good NGO's were given the opportunity if they couldn't do a much better job for much less money.
I think the only hope for the wolves is if enough people nationwide, and especially from the areas where this is happening, speak out against the plan. [edited] might not be president for much longer, but this could hurt the [edited] side so close to elections.
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Mandycat
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2008, 06:07:18 PM » |
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First of all, let me say that I am not for killing of any species indiscriminately. However, I don't think that this rule change is meant to do that. Right now, the gray wolf is still on the Endangered Species list, but the populations of them are growing in this particular area to where they are threatening livestock and domestic animals. This rule just allows an exception to the endangered species law to allow for killing the wolf in very specific circumstances. There already is an exception that allows one to kill a wolf that threatens your dog on your own property. But, if you were on a hike with your dog in this area of the country, and you encountered a wolf who threatened your dog, you would not be allowed by Federal law to kill that wolf. Think about that. In this circumstance, would you rather be allowed to protect the life of your dog, or would you prefer to allow the wolf to kill your dog? If you killed the wolf without this new rule being enacted, you would be violating Federal law, but feel justified in doing so because you love your dog. Many want to defend the wolf and don't want this rule or for the wolf to be delisted from the Endangered Species list, but would chose to kill the wolf in specific circumstances. You can't have things both ways. Wouldn't it make more sense to have this exception for now until a decision is made for delisting and a reasonable management plan be put into place? At the very least, people who live in this area of the country would not have to make the decision to violate Federal law to protect their beloved pet and suffer the consequences of that decision. I would hope for some reasonable resolution of the management problem if delisting takes place, but I don't think this rule for exception to the law right now is necessarily a bad thing.
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petslave
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2008, 06:38:28 PM » |
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Some sad stories on here, but a very interesting look at what's going on around the world with wolves: http://www.everythingwolf.com/news/readarticle.aspx?article=167Wyoming & Montana are already killing a number of wolves. In Switzerland, there has to be a minimum of 25 livestock kills in an area to kill any wolves.
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catmom5
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« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2008, 04:47:01 AM » |
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I understand about the rare exception ~ however, I have two thoughts about that. First, once the "exception" is legal, there will be too many unscrupulous people who take it as an open door to kill these wolves for other reasons. The other thought is that we move into their dwindling habitat and then kill them when they act like nature created them to act. It happens all the time. We devastate forests, grasslands, etc and take away their home and then kill them for "intruding" on ours. I don' like the idea of wild animals attacking domestic animals or humans, of course, but it seems to me that we have to learn to share this planet with them. (This hits very close to home because in my state we have overdeveloped areas and now have deer in cities, suburban neighborhoods, etc and they end up dead because they have nowhere else to go.) catmom5
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