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Arabiannikki
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2008, 09:39:33 PM » |
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Thankyou for posting that too. I knew you would. At least its not modified. I pm'd you so that the board would not be tied up with all of this. I figured you might respond as an adult as to what your problem is with me. I figured (being the adult I am) I would keep it off the forum since this is not the place. I guess you feel differently.
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Arabiannikki
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2008, 09:47:09 PM » |
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IMO only way we would not need a vet is to have quality food to feed in the first place. Can anyone stand up and say that if the food were not laden with gawd knows what among the questionable mixes added to it that the pets would live long healthy vibrant lives without need of a vets care?
Read on a site a few years ago (wish I could remember it) that if a pet is fed healthy and not given toxic vaccines that dogs and cats can live to 30 yrs of age. Well I'm trying that with my current dog to see if what this person wrote is true or not.
And as a closing thought when I took the dog I adopted from the shelter to my regular vet just for a check over they asked me what kind of food I would be feeding. I told them organic and home cooking. Their reply was "well we'll never see you again." So that meant the organic and home cooking would not harm my dog and result would be a healthy animal with no need of any vet visits.
Thankfully alot of Holistic vets speak that exact same thing. They are few and far between but they are out there promoting homecooked, raw and good nutrition.
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JJ
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2008, 09:58:16 PM » |
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That would be a good topic a place on here where each person in their state would list Holistic vets that people might not be aware of. Might just start it.
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'Life isn't about how to survive the storm, But how to dance in the rain.'
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Arabiannikki
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2008, 10:24:21 PM » |
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Thats a good idea and you can also look up a holistic vet through the AHVMA.
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Itchmo
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2008, 10:49:12 PM » |
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This thread is getting a little personal on a few members. Please keep it from getting out of hand, or I will have to to lock this thread.
Other than that bit-o-business, hope you guys are having a fun weekend!
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Read the latest cat, dog and pet news, pet food recall info, product reviews and more — updated daily at http://www.itchmo.com
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JJ
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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2008, 10:55:38 PM » |
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I did put a new topic under the Vet section on here so should anyone have a holisitic vet in their state please feel free to list the name, address and phone number for the everyone to share and make use of. Thx!
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'Life isn't about how to survive the storm, But how to dance in the rain.'
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Arabiannikki
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« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2008, 10:57:15 PM » |
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Great...I'll do some checking. I can't possibly list them all. This is a huge state.
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Klondike
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« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2008, 11:12:04 PM » |
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Re: "Seems like vets are already liable for bills due to malpractice if you can prove it."
I wish that were true, Klondike -- and it is theoretically, but not in practice. Because to prove it, of course, you have to take them to court. The amount you would spend far exceeds any amount you could recover. Example: One of the largest malpractice verdicts in teh country was Bluestone v. Bergstrom in California. The owner was awarded $39,000. Guess how much he spent prosecuting the case? Over $300,000. Suing for vet malpractice is impossible for all but the richest of the rich, and even then you would not do it to get back your expenses, you would do it to prove a point (since what you would spend on bringing the suit would just put you further in the hole.)
Also, I believe that most people believe that malpractice suits have driven up the cost of insurance because, we the public, have been midled to believe this by repetitive marketing paid for by the medical lobby and the politicians they have put in office. It is insurance Co profits that are the big problem.
In fact, only a fraction of the individuals harmed by medical malpractice ever bring a lawsuit. Depending on which source you believe, medical "care" gone wrong is either the third-leading cause of death in the US, or the 8th leading cause of death. If its that bad for humans who have the alternative of a lawsuit, you can only imagine how bad it is for pets who have no legal rights.
The damage caps on malpractice that are sweeping the country have merely made medical institutions, researches, pharmaceutical cos, and others less likely to take steps to reduce life-threatening drug reactions, malpractice, etc. It has put profit over people's wellbeing. That's my belief, based on research I have done.
Thanks for your kind words about the Toonces Project and support for a national veterinary quality database. Also, I agree w/you that PETA is not a terrorist group. I don't agree with a lot of what they do, but the AETA was passed by anti-animal people and mostly the brainchild of the biomedical research industries in the wake of the exposure of Huntington Life Sciences unspeakable cruelty to "laboratory beagles."
I'll give that some thought regarding the lawsuit issue. I'm sure a lot of propaganda comes out of the insurance industry. I'm not sure how to get around the high malpractice insurance fees, though I'm not comfortable with viewing pets as property, either. I'm glad you agree about the terrorist accusations against PETA being false. I do value free speech and find AETA troubling, too. But that is for another topic.
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"Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear." --General Douglas MacArthur
"Fascism should rather be called corporatism, as it is the merging of government and corporate power." --Benito Mussolini
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JessiesGirl
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« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2008, 03:26:54 AM » |
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Klondike, I worked for the claims handler for Proctor & Gamble at the time of the recalls and pets are most definitely defined as property under the law.  How do we explain to pet owners what our pets mean to us? How do we quantify their value? Even human losses are reduced to earning potential and the like in settlement terms.  And then there are the breeders, who may have paid up to 5K for their animal, expecting not only intangible breed improvement but financial rewards or at least equity for their investment in an animal they felt to be genetically superior. It's care, treatment, show and handling fees, it's stud or puppy fees. The rub is that breeders, who are likely to kennel the animals, are in a better position to collect than are pet owners, who have their hearts invested in their animals. I have nothing against breeders--responsible breeders. I was raised by one. But let's break it down, shall we? I paid 65 bucks for my shelter dog. My mom, the breeder, probably paid in excess of 25000 a piece for her dogs. I keep Jessie fed and attended by vets as recommended. SO does my mom. My Mom shows her dogs. 15 K annually per dog per year.. She bears the cost of stud fees and litters, and dam health during and after preganancy. Jessie is spayed. Each of my mom's pups will sell for 2500 or more. Jessie is spayed. IF we had been affected by the recall, I would get 85 dollars for the dog who lives with me, sleeps with me, and is my right hand. My mom could make a case for 10K per animal. Because they are defined legally as property.... She's not wrong, but Jessie is worth a lot more than 65 dollars.....
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kaffe
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« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2008, 03:42:29 AM » |
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Jessiesgirl: I have been wondering for some time what would happen if one of those truly expensive breeds like the so-calle Ashera cat was poisoned by commercial catfood... and I think your post partly answered my questions on this. Its the bitter bitter reality of the law as it stands.
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"A righteous man respects the life of his animal, but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel." (Prov. 12: 10) "The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Old Chinese Proverb)
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Sandi K
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« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2008, 07:37:29 AM » |
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Jessiesgirl, I would be curious to know what P&G's policy was during the recalls.....were they reimbursing people for vet bills? And I think pets being labeled as property is even questionable, if my bike was stolen, I would get more back on that if I filed a claim than what my cat was worth. And even if pets are labeled as property under the law, are pet food companies forced to follow that or perhaps because they make billions off of these so-called $65.00 bundles of fur, and when they are involved in poisoning, sickening and killing thousands of pets, they could do the right thing and treat the pet parents with respect and pay the vet bills that they caused, pay the time off work that they caused, pay for pain and suffering that they caused? Or better yet, make pet food that doesnt contain garbage that make pets sick. Whatever happened to doing the right thing. There definately is an inequity in the law, the PFC's make billions but yet the "property" they are feeding is worth nothing? I hope the Florida lawsuit that is pending will help reverse some of this. Even worse to me, is that many of these companies had fair warning that something was happening long before March 16th, I find it hard to believe I was the only pet parent calling the PFC and reporting something suspicious with the food coinciding with my kitty's illness. I thought it was the food, so much so, that I was even contacting various universities, along with the PFC, to see if they could test our food. That was in Dec 2006, Jan 2007. I think there is a big difference between following the law or hiding behind it when it fits their agenda.
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« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 08:30:11 AM by Sandi K »
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JJ
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« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2008, 09:34:21 PM » |
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Sandi K - Here Here !!!! >>>>>>"I think there is a big difference between following the law or hiding behind it when it fits their agenda."<<<<<<<<<
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'Life isn't about how to survive the storm, But how to dance in the rain.'
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Klondike
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« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2008, 10:22:07 PM » |
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Sandi and JJ, I agree there is a big difference there, also.
Jessiesgirl, those would be rough claims to process. I don't think you can assign an intrinsic value to life, but if you could, $65 dollars for a beloved friend and family member would be bitter indeed.
I don't know how that could be proper even in considering pets as property? Maybe that was an adoption fee, but what you are losing when you lose a pet is a unique and irreplacable relationship that took years to nuture. To look at that even in cold economic terms, you are losing all the time and financial costs of maintaining your pet for all those years. And even if you were compensated for that, the uniqueness of that pet and your relationship could never be brought back for any amount of money.
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"Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear." --General Douglas MacArthur
"Fascism should rather be called corporatism, as it is the merging of government and corporate power." --Benito Mussolini
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karvskitties
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« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2008, 11:52:08 PM » |
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Yup, while the advertising states healthful pet foods, loving family with critters, etc. etc., its all about the profit, settlements (why do you think they keep lawyers on staff?) When it all boils down - they don't give a d***n about the pet. I believe in another thread - Walmart was eyeing that $40 bill+ money proposed to be spent annually for pets - i.e., they know what they mean to us - but they only want the MONEY. So - when can we start that Pet Food Company?? <<edited for spelling errors - okay, I'll be the first to admit - I'M NOT PERFECT!! >>>
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« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 12:14:15 AM by karvskitties »
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Karen V
Proud Mom of 3 Kitties (and many, many more over the Rainbow).
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JJ
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« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2008, 12:00:39 AM » |
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Karen I 2nd and 3rd that. WHEN do we start the pet food company of our own? I'm In and Karen's in - are we SERIOUS about this? We can start by seeing who lives in the same state and close enough to each other to set-up a time to all talk and lay out plans and then take it from there???
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'Life isn't about how to survive the storm, But how to dance in the rain.'
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