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Offy
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« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2008, 04:05:53 PM » |
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That's what I've been harping on and most likely driving people nuts, it appears to be as true for animals as for humans. I don't think it's all dependant on ph, but on the levels of uric acid too. Then, add in higher levels of melamine it worsens as it can increases the bad news being transported in the system. Add in cyanuric acid and it has to be even worse. No matter how you look at it the crystal situation, which may/may not already be an issue (struvite/oxalate) then the melamine cyanurate or melamine/uric acid crystals, you have a unhealthy situation for the companion animals. Uric acid crystals seem to be as unsoluable as the melamine/cyanuric acid ones. Then, you add in pet foods with too many minerals, (ie the Special Kitty in atlanta with the clumping, color "most likely excessive minerals" - those were said to be struvite) I have asked and got no answers how vets can tell if the crystals are melamine cyanurate/struvite/oxalate or melamine/uric acid. Since most tests couldn't identify melamine I'm not confident the kidney stones are pets are having are strictly struvite/oxalate. And, for me, the overall vet community worries me as far as taking the impact of pet food on animal health much, much more seriously. That's part pf why the biomarker urine test really got me excited.. well, until I found out how many labs were clueless.  http://itchmoforums.com/recall-nonpet-food/melamine-suspected-chinese-officials-say-baby-formula-tied-to-kidney-stones-t6256.0.html;msg90401#msg90401 (where I forgot I'd said that before) |
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« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 04:11:50 PM by Offy »
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"The days of the fox guarding the henhouse, with corporate lobbyists writing the laws that regulate their industries, must end."*Brent Blackwelder, Friends of the Earth, Sept. 22, 2008
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catbird
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« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2008, 04:42:47 PM » |
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In the midst of the recalls and getting urine checks on my cats, I asked my vet how they could tell the difference between the different types of crystals.
She said that different crystals have different shapes under the microscope. The oxalate and struvite crystals are not shaped like the melamine/cyanuric acid crystals, but she said she'd read that in some cases, melamine/cyanuric acid crystals in the urine of some dogs had at first been mistaken for uric acid crystals.
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straybaby
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« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2008, 04:46:41 PM » |
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uric acid crystals/stones are what Dalmatians get ETA: Think this is good to know. Uric acid crystals are an abnormal finding in the urine of dogs other than Dalmatians. In the Dalmatian, because of their unique metabolism, uric acid crystals are normal in any urine sample and do not indicate whether stones are present or not. http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1683&S=0&EVetID=0 the link is about uric stones, but there is also info on uric acid in urine and crystals. Should we all adjust our diets until the FDA decides to have melamine included on ingredient labels and we can monitor our urine accordingly? |
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« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 05:02:30 PM by straybaby »
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Offy
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« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2008, 04:49:39 PM » |
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You're lucky your vet knew the shapes!
Question: If they can't pass them, is the ultrasound or urine test precise enough for the vet to know which type(s) of crystals it is, or are they relying on the urine sample having smaller crystals that can be passed in it?
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"The days of the fox guarding the henhouse, with corporate lobbyists writing the laws that regulate their industries, must end."*Brent Blackwelder, Friends of the Earth, Sept. 22, 2008
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catbird
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« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2008, 05:00:11 PM » |
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Not certain about this, but my guess is that the ultrasound would not be able to see the shapes of something this small. I've seen renal ultrasounds, and you have to be trained to interpret them correctly as to what is what. It's blurry. (Carol V could probably tell us more.) They could show a blockage, but not the fine microscopic detail to determine what it was composed of.
My supposition is that in the case of the babies in China and living animals, they are relying on microscopic views of smaller crystals or stones passed in the urine to determine the composition, or perhaps on chemical analysis of the urine.
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straybaby
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« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2008, 05:14:04 PM » |
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iirc, when I had a blocking kitty, my vet would literally rub her finger in the urine to see if it felt gritty. She sent it out for analysis to make sure it was the most common one and I believe it was a chemical test. This is a smaller vet operation, so a larger practice or vet hospital may have the equipment to visually identify them. I have a feeling they may test anyway. For bladder infections, they can tell there's an infection, but they send it out for more sensitive analysis to make sure they are giving the right antibiotic.
The Dal I rescued that was blocking had the stones sent out for conformation they were urate stones and he wasn't the odd Dal with a different stone before putting him on the stone meds. When dealing with crystals and stones, you need to positively identify or you can throw them over to one of the other ones.
Dipsticking the urine to monitor PH is helpful. Not sure if the PH changes if they have melamine crystals or stones forming. Does anyone have copies of blood tests from the pet food recall from a pet the had the bad food?
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5CatMom
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« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2008, 03:01:20 AM » |
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« Last Edit: October 04, 2008, 04:41:57 AM by 5CatMom »
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"What is man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected." Chief Seattle
"We are the caretakers of our creatures . . . the peacekeepers of our planet"
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Offy
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« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2008, 05:11:40 AM » |
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Since the FDA specifically said "infant formula" are they talking about powdered milk products, liquid milk products, products that contain milk derivatives & does that include any baby foods in jars (cereals, desserts, foods) that are canned with milk/milk derivatives?
When they say infant formula, I think about being bottle fed. But some baby foods have stages in jars.. are they saying "not allowed" in them too?
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"The days of the fox guarding the henhouse, with corporate lobbyists writing the laws that regulate their industries, must end."*Brent Blackwelder, Friends of the Earth, Sept. 22, 2008
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Offy
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« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2008, 01:19:46 PM » |
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Now, if Congress can just put some teeth into law, they are wasting our time and money fussing at the FDA.. they can & should do more than yak. We've heard so much stuff and watched FDAAA passed but with language so weak and the FDA so lazy that it turned into absolutely nothing. So, DeLauro, that sounds great and it did last year too. It accomplished absolutely nothing but get you & Durban good pr from constituents. Nothing more than Political BS makes no changes. Empty words from politicians get us no further than the FDA drivel. DO SOMETHING WITH TEETH IN IT!!! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100301258.html?hpid=sec-health"The FDA guidelines were issued to help federal and state investigators checking for contaminated Chinese products as they enter the country and in Asian grocery stores. Sundlof said the agency's goal is to identify products with potentially dangerous levels of melamine, rather than to find each small instance of contamination.
But Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-Conn.), head of a House subcommittee that oversees FDA funding, criticized the agency for saying there could be safe levels of melamine in foods.
"While other countries throughout the world, including the European Union, are acting to ban melamine-contaminated products from China, the FDA has chosen to establish an acceptable level for melamine in food in an attempt to convince consumers that it is not harmful," DeLauro said in a statement. "Not only is this is an insult to consumers, but it would appear that the FDA is condoning the intentional contamination of foods." |
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"The days of the fox guarding the henhouse, with corporate lobbyists writing the laws that regulate their industries, must end."*Brent Blackwelder, Friends of the Earth, Sept. 22, 2008
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straybaby
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« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2008, 03:13:35 PM » |
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Since the FDA specifically said "infant formula" are they talking about powdered milk products, liquid milk products, products that contain milk derivatives & does that include any baby foods in jars (cereals, desserts, foods) that are canned with milk/milk derivatives?
When they say infant formula, I think about being bottle fed. But some baby foods have stages in jars.. are they saying "not allowed" in them too?
I was wondering the same thing since baby food was pulled in one of the countries (if not more than one). Isn't infant formula the only thing the FDA has auto recall powers for? Makes you wonder about the veggies in baby food with what we now know . . . |
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Sandi K
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« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2008, 10:29:50 PM » |
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Now, if Congress can just put some teeth into law, they are wasting our time and money fussing at the FDA.. they can & should do more than yak. We've heard so much stuff and watched FDAAA passed but with language so weak and the FDA so lazy that it turned into absolutely nothing. So, DeLauro, that sounds great and it did last year too. It accomplished absolutely nothing but get you & Durban good pr from constituents. Nothing more than Political BS makes no changes. Empty words from politicians get us no further than the FDA drivel. DO SOMETHING WITH TEETH IN IT!!! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100301258.html?hpid=sec-health"The FDA guidelines were issued to help federal and state investigators checking for contaminated Chinese products as they enter the country and in Asian grocery stores. Sundlof said the agency's goal is to identify products with potentially dangerous levels of melamine, rather than to find each small instance of contamination.
But Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-Conn.), head of a House subcommittee that oversees FDA funding, criticized the agency for saying there could be safe levels of melamine in foods.
"While other countries throughout the world, including the European Union, are acting to ban melamine-contaminated products from China, the FDA has chosen to establish an acceptable level for melamine in food in an attempt to convince consumers that it is not harmful," DeLauro said in a statement. "Not only is this is an insult to consumers, but it would appear that the FDA is condoning the intentional contamination of foods." Yeah but Offy, we dont want to offend them now do we? Isnt that what Nancy Hershey-bar Cook said (or something to thath effect). FDA supporting acceptable levels of melamine is saying they dont want to offend them. Come on, where are our balls?  (Can I say that.."balls"? I mean beach balls of course....)  |
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