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Pet Food Info (Menu Foods, Iams, Purina, Hills, Ol'Roy, etc.) => Pet Food Questions and Researching Foods/Ingredients => Topic started by: 5CatMom on August 15, 2009, 04:13:48 AM



Title: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: 5CatMom on August 15, 2009, 04:13:48 AM
The FOIA documents were an eye-opener for me.  It's quite a revelation to learn that Champion was/is sourcing meal from a US rendering company.

This is very different from the following which appears in the Q&A's on their site:

The above info from Champion is quite different from the following which does appear on the Q&A page of their site:


Q | FRESH CHICKEN - Where are our chickens from? Are they free-run?
 
A | Our chicken ingredients come from the ALBERTA CHICKEN PRODUCERS and are made fresh from grain-fed Alberta chickens. Our fresh chicken is table grade and arrives FRESH – never frozen and without any preservatives – and is processed into ORIJEN the day it is received. Our chicken meals and fats are produced from human-grade chicken ingredients in Alberta, Canada.

http://www.championpetfoods.com/faq/

Edit:  Looks like Champion's site has been changed to the following:

Q | FRESH CHICKEN - Where are our chickens from? Are they free-run?

A | Our chicken ingredients come from the ALBERTA CHICKEN PRODUCERS and are made fresh from grain-fed Alberta chickens. Our fresh chicken is table grade and arrives FRESH – never frozen and without any preservatives – and is processed into ORIJEN the day it is received.

Please visit our FRESH REGIONAL INGREDIENTS page to learn more.  


Hopefully, Champion will also explain about the US chicken meal on their site.  Given all the pet food problems in the US, lack of regulations, lax enforcement of regulations, sloppy industry practices, the corporation/government cabal, and so forth, meals that are sourced from US rendering companies don't inspire confidence, IMO.   

It's the NEXT RECALL which concerns me.

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B-LDrRDG112PZGYxNDgzYmItZDg1MC00OGQ5LTk4ODEtYjkzYjRhNjVmMTky&hl=en

5CM
=^..^=


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: raggiesrule on August 16, 2009, 05:25:22 PM
Interesting.

Where did you find the above link as I can find nothing about the use of US chicken meal on their websites.

The issues firstly with the BHA and BHT and now the chicken meal does make me wonder what else is going on with their ingredients and processing that they have yet to admit. And is that why the promised test results on the Australian irradiated food not been released - something else they do not want us all to know?

From the research that has been done on the feeding of irradiated foods to cats - the affected Australian cats should have gotten better and they clearly have not - cats are still partially paralysed and still dying (now of organ failure). I have to ask what else besides irradiation affected the Australian cats?

Jo


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: petslave on August 16, 2009, 06:12:01 PM
I wonder if they switched to US meal to get away from the BHT issue they were having with the Canadian meal.  There was mention of finding a source of human grade meal.


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: raggiesrule on August 16, 2009, 07:30:07 PM
Well if that is in fact the case they must have been aware of the BHA & BHT issue prior to the testing of the irradiated pet food even though that was when it was acknowledged. I am saying this because they were already using US chicken meal in 2007 according to the documents in the FOI and if as you suggest the reason was to fix the BHA & BHT problem it did not work as there was BHA and BHT found in the tested food and acknowledged by Clark Stride on this forum under the orijen thread way back in Dec 2008.

Jo


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: JJ on August 16, 2009, 08:37:43 PM
Jo I do remember the mention of the BHA and BHT source that they were looking into to change the source to get rid of the BHA and BHT. So the chicken is from where exactly now?


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: raggiesrule on August 16, 2009, 11:10:07 PM
How would we know? communicating what is actually going on is not one of their strong points it would seem. They did not mention using US sourced chicken meal on their website though it was clearly in use from Aug 2007 to Nov 2008 at least - if they had I for one would not have purchased their product after what had happened in the US such a short time before.

Jo


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: 5CatMom on August 17, 2009, 04:22:07 AM
Jo,

The info was emailed to me.  It's not on Champion's site - at least I couldn't find it.

The connection to US rendering companies is scary, IMO.  
 
Didn't pet food companies learn ANYTHING from the recalls of 2007/2008?

You ask a great question:  ". . . what else besides irradiation affected the Australian cats?"
 

5CM
=^..^=


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: bug on August 17, 2009, 07:27:58 AM
OK. At first, I was wondering why such an opposition to US chicken meal if it is USDA approved for humans. Now I think I get it. Are you guys figuring that because they were using it around the time of the Menu recalls, that it could have contained melamine/CA and that is what might have been affecting the cats? If so, how do you explain the millions of people using this food with no problems -- myself included from 2007-2008. Maybe I'm still not understanding. Wouldn't it be better to have the chicken meal provided by a US company rather than a Canadian one that has no inspections whatsoever?


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: 5CatMom on August 17, 2009, 03:02:24 PM
Bug,

It would be better for Champion to make their own meal from those fine Alberta chickens.

The recall in 2007 was caused by "human grade" wheat flour, so I'm a bit of a skeptic when "human grade" ingredients are involved.

Also, it's hard to put "food safety" and "USDA/FDA" in the same sentence.

5CM
=^..^=


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: Sandi K on August 17, 2009, 03:08:18 PM
If so, how do you explain the millions of people using this food with no problems

Do we know that there are actually millions using this food?  I thought I read somewhere somebody saying Orijen was a small company.... :-\


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: Mandycat on August 17, 2009, 04:19:19 PM
 I don't think that a petfood company CAN make their own chicken meal, or any other kind of meal.  I think it is a product that they have to obtain from a supplier whose business it is to make those meals.  I also think that there is a great misunderstanding about the role of rendering companies.  Yes, they do use lots of what many consider "garbage" to make products such as fuels, fertilizers, tallow, etc. that are used in other products.  They also make protein meals that are used in animal feed and petfood.  They do not use the "garbage" to make these.  They use chicken, or beef, or pork, or lamb, or turkey, or the by-products of these meats, to make those meals.  If you look at the Griffin Industries website on the page that they list the protein meals that they make, you will be able to see more information on them and their analysis.  You will also see that their meals are EU certified.  This is the company that Orijen supposedly was, or is, using.  This company custom makes meals for clients to their specifications.  What is the problem with this?  Many posters here were praising the EU regulations as being the goal for everyone in the petfood industry to follow.  If Champion determined that the meals made in Canada did not meet their standards, why would it be wrong for them to obtain it from a U.S. company that DID meet those standards?   ???

     Actually, I think that some of the context of this discussion has gotten lost because it is actually spread over 2 other threads in addition to this one. 

      http://itchmoforums.com/news-recall-related/in-the-public-interest-orijen-irradiation-t8862.15.html

      http://itchmoforums.com/news-recall-related/problems-with-orijen-in-australia-t6985.990.html

 


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: raggiesrule on August 17, 2009, 04:45:53 PM
And if they are a "small company" how big are their production runs and were the batchs that came to Australia all that was in those production runs? I know the company has said that is not the case but they also originally said there was no BHA or BHT in their food and that ingredients were sourced regionally including their chicken meal when that is clearly not the case. And given they have still released none of their testing results I still have to wonder what they found. They originally claimed nothing was found and then it changed to "there were a few compounds discovered" (ref to pg 32 of the Orijen thread http://itchmoforums.com/news-recall-related/problems-with-orijen-in-australia-t6985.465.html) after they were challenged about the nothing found. Which version of the "truth" do they wish us to believe - I suspect whichever one they think is most convenient at the time. What I asked for originally and still ask for is not their version of the truth but test results that can be validated by our vets as being accurate (through discussions with the relevant testing authorities) or better yet results of testing sent directly to our vets so our vets have the best chance of treating our cats adequately but that is clearly not going to happen and I continue to wonder why. Given the research that has already been done on irradiated food feed to cats, it would have been expected that they should have recovered spontaneously, over several months, once the irradiated food was removed from their diets and this is clearly not the case with the Orijen affected Australian cats. So I ask again what else is going on, what else was in that food that is still causing illness and death of our cats.

Jo


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: 5CatMom on August 17, 2009, 04:56:07 PM
Mandycat,

LOL, I thought they could get a big, big kettle and a tank of propane, and have a chicken rendering party.

Nothing wrong with using ingredients that meet your specifications.  But if you're a pet food company, how do you determine if ingredients meet your specifications?

Do you simply trust your supplier (like Chemnutra trusted certificates of purity), or do you perform robust incoming QA testing?

Just curious, but have you asked Champion how they test their incoming ingredients?


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: bug on August 17, 2009, 05:07:03 PM
If so, how do you explain the millions of people using this food with no problems

Do we know that there are actually millions using this food?  I thought I read somewhere somebody saying Orijen was a small company.... :-\

I suppose I'm guessing that over the two years and major markets Orijen is available in all over the globe in all the flavours they offer and various package sizes (the very small trial bags are extremely popular here) for both cats and dogs, they would have sold millions of bags by now (I could be waaay off). According to their information, Orijen is produced in small batches. How small? Who knows. I don't even know what a large batch would be from a company like Purina, for instance, to be able to compare.

I'm also not sure why there is the notion that there are more detrimental compounds that were not disclosed and not a part of the irradiation process. No one knows exactly what would have happened to the food if it were irradiated because it cannot be compared to the diets of the test cats in the studies (links) that have been provided in the threads about this subject. Unless someone were to replicate the process exactly, with exactly the same ingredients, under the same conditions, one will never know whether or not there were compounds produced that were unique to that food, causing the extreme disease processes that these cats have suffered.

If that were the case, I think cats around the globe would be suffering the "extra" symptoms not delineated by the studies that have been performed using a specific food preparation that was purposely irradiated. We're not seeing that in North America, unless the symptoms are so common and attributable to other things that they routinely slip by veterinarians and caregivers (e.g. renal failure, liver failure, etc.).


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: Mandycat on August 17, 2009, 05:26:42 PM
Mandycat,

LOL, I thought they could get a big, big kettle and a tank of propane, and have a chicken rendering party.

Nothing wrong with using ingredients that meet your specifications.  But if you're a pet food company, how do you determine if ingredients meet your specifications?

Do you simply trust your supplier (like Chemnutra trusted certificates of purity), or do you perform robust incoming QA testing?

Just curious, but have you asked Champion how they test their incoming ingredients?


     I would hope that a company has QA testing on the ingredients they get from their suppliers to be sure that they do meet their specifications.


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: 5CatMom on August 17, 2009, 05:36:09 PM
Mandycat,

Much better to ask than to hope.

If you call and ask, we could compare notes.


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: lesliek on August 17, 2009, 05:57:08 PM
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any QA or QC from any pfc. It does seem strange that the Australian symptoms & treatment aren't going well or following the admittedly tiny amount of knowledge of irradiation problems. I also think there is more to this. Whether the minute amounts of BHA & BHT could have caused more health problems,or possibly ethoxiquin. It does seem like something else is going on. I also have a problem with all the inconsistencies in the info Orijen/Champion has on their site,or posted. It may well be 1 of the better pf available,but the company is still playing the same old game they all do.
Slightly OT ,but I do remember 1 company doing their own meat meal during the recalls. Can't find it,does anyone remember ? Might have been Merrick but I'm not sure.


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: 5CatMom on August 17, 2009, 06:01:12 PM
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any QA or QC from any pfc.

Bingo.  You called?

5CM
=^..^=


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: Sandi K on August 17, 2009, 06:11:35 PM

     I would hope that a company has QA testing on the ingredients they get from their suppliers to be sure that they do meet their specifications.

You mean like with Nutro who found out in May of 09 that food they made beginning in Dec 08 had a serious nutrient problem?   :-\


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: Mandycat on August 17, 2009, 06:46:36 PM
Quote
I don't think that a petfood company CAN make their own chicken meal, or any other kind of meal.  I think it is a product that they have to obtain from a supplier whose business it is to make those meals.

Did a pet food company say that, Mandy?  I thought from reading here that there was a pet food company in Texas that also rendered food.  Is there a law that prohibits them from using their own meals in their pet foods? 


Poco,
     I did not mean in any legal sense that a petfood company cannot make their own meals.  I was referring to the fact that it takes specialized equipment, etc. and that most petfood companies do not have that.  Therefore, it is probably more economical to obtain it from a supplier than to invest in the necessary equipment to do it themselves.  There may be petfood companies that own rendering facilities as well, but that is most likely the exception rather than the rule.  Being a rather small manufacturer, I doubt that Orijen has a rendering facility as well, and therefore, can't make their own meals.  That is what I was thinking of when I wrote the post.  I hope this makes my meaning clearer for you.     


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: catbird on August 17, 2009, 07:32:11 PM

Slightly OT ,but I do remember 1 company doing their own meat meal during the recalls. Can't find it,does anyone remember ? Might have been Merrick but I'm not sure.

slightly OT too--Leslie, from what has been posted on the forum earlier, it appears that Merrick owns a rendering plant that is near their pet food producing facility.  So I'm guessing it may indeed be Merrick that you are thinking about.  I'll see if I can find the thread.
ETA:  Here is one thread where that was discussed:
http://itchmoforums.com/your-problems-with-pet-food/merrick-dog-foods-t1880.0.html;msg23977#msg23977


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: bug on August 18, 2009, 06:09:01 AM
I'm still not clear on what is making folks think that the symptoms these cats are experiencing has anything to do with something other than irradiation. Can anyone expound on the thought process?

BHA and BHT metabolites can be carcinogenic, but these compounds are antioxidants. In so far as irradiation has likely had an effect on the properties of these additives, I agree that changes could have contributed to the symptoms, but they would not have had these effects on their own. We're not seeing cancer in these cats.

Champion pays their fish meal producer to preserve their product with natural antioxidants. They don't use ethoxyquin. If it's in the food, and no one has suggested that it is, it is another compound that is likely affected by irradiation as it is also an antioxidant.

The research that has been conducted on cats with regards to irradiated cat food may not have included these compounds, nor have they used the same formulation that Champion uses for Orijen, so, how can one come to the conclusion that something else is amiss?

Again, using science rather than emotion, if the problems encountered were to be attributable to these man-made antioxidants, we would be seeing problems in the non-Australian cat population who are consuming Orijen. We are not seeing reports of such a problem.


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: 5CatMom on August 18, 2009, 06:52:36 AM
Just my old big mouth opinion.

Can't use "science" and "pet food making" in the same sentence.

And you can't apply the scientific method of problem analysis to a process that is out of control.

IMO, pet food manufacturing is an out of control process 1)  because of all the cwrap we find in the food, 2) because of symptoms we observe in our pets (opened new bag, fed cat, cat died), 3) because of all the "recalls" that happen, 4) because of evasive and non-answers from pet food companies, 5) because PFCs say they don't test incoming ingredients, they "trust their suppliers".

Pet food manufacturing is not aerospace engineering, or medical research.  There are no QA/QC departments, there's no calibrated test equipment, there's no "six sigma" process analysis.

Call a PFC, any PFC.  Ask to speak with their Quality Assurance Department, and see what happens.

Pet food manufacturing is throwing together a bunch of least cost, untested cwrap from God knows where, putting it in a pretty bag, and hoping for the best.

Don't hope.  Don't assume.  Call and talk with someone who'll provide accurate information about how the company really operates.   

PS    I've been using Orijen since 2007

5CM
=^..^=  
 


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: bug on August 18, 2009, 07:14:38 AM
5Cat, I do agree that this industry is out of control.

I have, however, had the opportunity to talk to several nutritionists and QC people from some of the companies I purchase my cat foods from. They have answered my detailed questions, provided me with written information and I have been satisfied with what I have received. I'm probably the exception here. I can see that there are many people here left in a quandry about many issues they've encountered -- that's for sure -- thread upon thread.

Having said all that, I still can't find any good evidence that the symptoms experienced by the Aus cats is attributable to anything more than the irradiation of the product. I think that this whole thing could be put to bed if Champion made the test results public as interpreted by an independent third party (i.e. food scientist). I don't think it would be too helpful to just post the analysis without explanation because not everyone can make heads or tails of the info. It may be the case, though, that this information is being held hostage by lawyers preparing a defense. We don't know if Champion has been served and what they are being told to do and not to do. They may be a small company, but I'm sure they have legal counsel.


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: 5CatMom on August 18, 2009, 07:24:12 AM
Bug,

Good that you called.  Wish more folks would.  Then, maybe, we'd see positive changes.

Hugs,

5CM
=^..^=


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: bug on August 18, 2009, 07:35:42 AM
Thanks 5Cat -- Maybe that's the key here. I don't send email the first time I contact a company. I call and specifically ask for the company nutritionist. I explain that the questions I have are very detailed nutritional questions and that the CS rep likely could not answer my questions. Sometimes, they test me by asking what the question is anyway and once I get into something like "could you tell me the ratio of phenylalanine to tyrosine and the entire percentage inclusion in your food," they usually pass me on and then I either get things cleared up or I ask for their direct email address and send them a list of questions. The only company that I've had a problem with is Hills. They will not disclose any detailed nutritional information to the public.

I have also managed to speak directly with several QC managers and a couple of CEOs (of small companies). They have all seemed like real people to me -- not the nameless, faceless conglomerate heads that we all picture.

None of the companies that I have spoken with are 100% recall or incident-free, BUT, I have appreciated their responses and I know I can contact these people directly and get an answer (have done this numerous times). I've even received a phone call from one person who couldn't write down what they had to tell me in an email, but they disclosed something to me regardless.

I wish everyone could get some kind of satisfaction from the companies they've contacted. Maybe we'd give them a little more credit if they all treated us with respect.


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: JJ on August 18, 2009, 10:48:31 PM

BHA and BHT metabolites can be carcinogenic, but these compounds are antioxidants. In so far as irradiation has likely had an effect on the properties of these additives, I agree that changes could have contributed to the symptoms, but they would not have had these effects on their own. We're not seeing cancer in these cats.


From what I have read BHA and BHT are preservatives that cause cancer. How would one see cancer in these cats when this just happened. Where is a web site(s) that state these are antioxidants? And with chemical testing to show reaction as antioxidants in the humans or animals system? Just confusing to state this in something that can be carcinogenic. Clarity is always appreciated bug. Thanks.


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: bug on August 19, 2009, 05:30:17 AM
From what I have read BHA and BHT are preservatives that cause cancer. How would one see cancer in these cats when this just happened. Where is a web site(s) that state these are antioxidants? And with chemical testing to show reaction as antioxidants in the humans or animals system? Just confusing to state this in something that can be carcinogenic. Clarity is always appreciated bug. Thanks.

Here you go -- sorry, should have posted source:

http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa082101a.htm


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: babysweet on August 20, 2009, 02:59:16 PM
It is my understanding that every Champion ingredient is tested off site for pathogens.  The trucks are not allowed on the property until they pass muster.

Once ingredients get through the door, each individual ingredient goes through a testing procedure.  If you contact Champion, I'm sure they will outline it for you.  I had it explained to me in person, and well... the brain, she no work so well no more.  ;)

As for the USDA thing, upon re-reading the information on the website posted here on itchmo (thanks to whoever did that - my apologies, I forget!!) and speaking with Champion, it is somewhat clear that they are referring to their FRESH meats, and not their meals.  I can most certainly see how the meal information could be extrapolated (hell, I did it!) but no where do they explicitly say that their meals come from Canada.  I'm not happy about this, but I'm not as angry as I was.  I'm going to talk with them about clarity in their information.

Incidentally, I will be meeting with Champion in late September.  If anyone has any questions regarding ingredients, sources, processing, testing, etc., please PM me and I will do my very best.  Please remove the snark and/or emotion from all questions.  I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this, but I do have a working relationship with these people, and while I will not hesitate to stick my neck out and tear a strip off of someone I feel is misleading myself or my customers, it's a bit different when presenting questions from an online forum.

I will not be delving into the Australia issue, aside from attempting to ascertain their perspective on the situation.  Please do not think that I am ignoring the plights of the cats affected, but frankly I'm unlikely to get any useful information if I go in, guns blazing. 

Also, the more detailed the questions (ie the more sources provided to back up concerns or questions) the better response you will receive.

I can't guarantee I will get to everyone's question, but I can promise that I will do my best.

Off to take the puppy out for a pee.  AGAIN.   ::)


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: raggiesrule on August 21, 2009, 04:20:04 AM
Geez bit confused as Zea mays = maize = corn???? so hardly surprising that people would think it's corn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize

Does corn mean something different in north america? Edited to explain this question was based on a post that that has been removed.

Baby sweet could you also please ask, given the push to irradiate products for "safety" what Champion are doing to ensure their non fresh ingredients, eg: chicken meal, are not irradiated. Why there is no mention of US chicken meal in their product or on their website? And what other ingredients are sourced from outside Canada or are produced outside Canada even if Champion source them from another Canadian company?

Jo







Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: 5CatMom on August 21, 2009, 04:25:16 AM
Marketing companies know that hopeful customers will make positive connections between real and imagined information.

On Champion's site "Canadian", "Regional" and "Fresh" are prominent, so it's easy to "hope" that all ingredients are just that.

I don't see "US chicken and turkey meal" mentioned anywhere on Chamption's site.  LOL, guess that would spoil the "wholesome" effect.

5CatMom
=^..^=


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: 5CatMom on August 21, 2009, 04:32:23 AM
Jo,

Deleted that post 'cause it was in the wrong place.  Very sorry. 

(knocks head against wall)

5CM


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: JustMe on August 21, 2009, 05:09:38 AM
JMO, but not discussing the irradiation issue is like ignoring the elephant in the room.  No snark intended. 


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: bug on August 21, 2009, 05:26:38 AM
RaggiesRule,

Zea Mays is cornsilk, not the actual corn kernels or any part of the husk. It is not classified as grain. They removed that botanical early on with their first change in formulation.


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: raggiesrule on August 21, 2009, 06:39:54 AM
RaggiesRule,

Zea Mays is cornsilk, not the actual corn kernels or any part of the husk. It is not classified as grain. They removed that botanical early on with their first change in formulation.

Thanks bug - easily explained I would have thought as you have done - Zea mays can of course refer to more than the grain. 

Though that was not what I was quering - does corn refer to something other than Zea mays in north america?

Jo


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: Sandi K on August 21, 2009, 07:00:34 AM
Agreed, I keep going back to the issue of how a company treats its customers.  They can have supposedly the best food on the planet but seeing how they treat customers when there is a problem, to me, is a good indication of how I myself might be treated if I had a sick cat from their food.  They didnt treat the people connected with the irradiation problem so hot...so while it might not be a question, perhaps as a store owner that is meeting with the company, you can pass on what some pet owners think about it and why some wont be trying their food.  I think its good for a company to hear how their food problem and how they handled their food problem might have affected their company.  Its perhaps a way to initiate change for the better.

 
JMO, but not discussing the irradiation issue is like ignoring the elephant in the room.  No snark intended.  


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: 5CatMom on August 21, 2009, 07:37:56 AM
Corn in field
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2485/3842218829_468b3f9b5c_o.jpg)

Corn with silk
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2456/3843007412_0c4e902e81_o.jpg)

Dried corn with husks
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3525/3842218759_633686c6f3_o.jpg)

Corny Rex
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3416/3667506815_3ec936bb26_m.jpg)

LOL, just a little corn humor ;D!

5CM


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: lesliek on August 21, 2009, 08:55:27 AM
 ;D ;D


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: JJ on August 21, 2009, 10:19:01 AM
Corn in field
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2485/3842218829_468b3f9b5c_o.jpg)

Corn with silk
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2456/3843007412_0c4e902e81_o.jpg)

Dried corn with husks
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3525/3842218759_633686c6f3_o.jpg)

Corny Rex
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3416/3667506815_3ec936bb26_m.jpg)

LOL, just a little corn humor ;D!

5CM
OT - Corny Rex with those jack rabbit legs.  ;D


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: JJ on September 22, 2009, 06:02:47 PM
Poco why would they need an MRI? Is there something we don't know about the food that you'd like to share perhaps?


Title: Re: Orijen - Concerns About Ingredients
Post by: bug on September 22, 2009, 06:42:42 PM
No, JJ. You might want to check the following thread to see what Poco was talking about (http://itchmoforums.com/raw-food-diets-for-cats/raw-feeding-and-blood-work-discussion-t9263.0.html). So actually, in the case of Orijen, one might have caught the demyelination early (from the feeding of irradiated lots that had gone out to Australia) if an MRI was conducted. But, MRIs are very costly to do, are not available to everyone in addition to the animal having to be anaesthetized in order to perform the test, so I don't think that would have been on anyone's radar at the time -- a little extreme. The condition these cats are suffering through would not have been able to be confirmed but for an MRI, although routine bloodwork may have shown the other problems encountered with their organ systems -- not that they could have done anything more to help these poor cats.

I do hope things are turning around for them.