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Pet Food Info (Menu Foods, Iams, Purina, Hills, Ol'Roy, etc.) => Raw Food Diets For Cats => Topic started by: JustMe on August 02, 2007, 03:52:17 AM



Title: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: JustMe on August 02, 2007, 03:52:17 AM
This topic is only for members currently feeding raw diets that are NOT commercially prepared or who are interested in such diets in the future and have questions and/or need help/encouragement.  No criticism will be allowed.  Posts will be deleted without warning if rules are not followed regarding criticism.  However, you can have a free-flowing conversation in this thread as it is not structured like the brand name threads are.  Enjoy.


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: kaffe on August 02, 2007, 09:22:27 PM
Portland, Oregon.  My cats' diet consists of home-prepared raw food occassionally supplemented with commerical raw or commercial canned or commercial cat kibble (just to give the kitties variety).  The commercial part of the diet make up no more than 10% of my cats' weekly food intake.   Both cats are doing very very well on this diet.  I use the raw cat food recipe from CatNutrition.org with a couple of variations.  For example, I add 1 cup of lightly cooked mixed vegetables in every batch of raw food I make to give the cats extra fiber and prevent constipation. I also add a multi-enzyme tablet to the daily raw ration to help digestion. 


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: Cato on September 27, 2009, 12:50:01 AM
Update:  Cato is on 85% raw and 15% kibble ( his snacky at night so he doesn't wake me up).  But I noticed that the 1/4 cup I leave in the bowl for him to snak on is always only half eaten.  So maybe it is more like 90% raw and 10% kibble.  He looks and seems to feel great on this diet.  Thick, long, silky, wondrous-smelling coat; bright eyes; tons of energy; no fleas; bright, alert eyes; no-smelly poopies and excellent disposition.  He is maintaining weight - a whopping 14 pounds now and may still have some growing to do.  And he won't eat any commercial canned anymore, nor - sigh - any cooked recipe I make him taste-test.  He just wants raw food - as fresh as I could make it.

Despite all the dire warnings of salmonella, e-coli, neither Cato nor Kaffe ever had problems like that since I began raw feeding in 2007. 



Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: sharky on September 27, 2009, 07:53:50 AM
Update:  Cato is on 85% raw and 15% kibble ( his snacky at night so he doesn't wake me up).  But I noticed that the 1/4 cup I leave in the bowl for him to snak on is always only half eaten.  So maybe it is more like 90% raw and 10% kibble.  He looks and seems to feel great on this diet.  Thick, long, silky, wondrous-smelling coat; bright eyes; tons of energy; no fleas; bright, alert eyes; no-smelly poopies and excellent disposition.  He is maintaining weight - a whopping 14 pounds now and may still have some growing to do.  And he won't eat any commercial canned anymore, nor - sigh - any cooked recipe I make him taste-test.  He just wants raw food - as fresh as I could make it.

Despite all the dire warnings of salmonella, e-coli, neither Cato nor Kaffe ever had problems like that since I began raw feeding in 2007. 



My holistic / conventional raw advocating vet HAS YET to have issue with the possible bacterial issues.. Neither did I even feeding raw / homemade to chronic issue "kids" nor did I with a impaired immune system get any  ... but several vets in the area have seen some bacterial issues in raw feed cat s


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: Auntie Crazy on September 27, 2009, 08:46:35 AM
What bacterial issues, Sharky?


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: sharky on September 27, 2009, 09:44:17 AM
e coli and salmonella ... some have lost the cats :'( :'( ... It is bad enough that they ask on their entry forms if the animal is raw feed ... But my vet likely has several hundred on partly raw has yet to see it ...


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: petslave on September 27, 2009, 10:04:08 AM
I haven't had any problems with home-fed raw for my dogs, but I did have an issue with one popular commercial raw food.  I bought their organic chicken line to try on the cats, and all the cats that ate it got terrible diarrhea.  I had just finished several packs of their non-organic food with them, exact same formula, so I didn't see how it could be a food switch problem. 

I fed it to my little dog, still not believing it was a sanitation problem, and he ended up with bad diarrhea too.  So I'm totally convinced that batch was contaminated with bacteria.  I don't trust raw commercial anymore.  Who knows how many times it's been handled or sat around under warmer conditions.

Cato, is the raw diet recipe you're using posted in the threads here?  Are you grinding meats or just feeding chopped raw meat with supplements added?  I'd like to start feeding some raw to my cats that will eat it.  I don't have money or kitchen space to get into the grinding thing though.


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: sharky on September 27, 2009, 10:11:33 AM
It is  well known Organic ( ie the certified) meats have MORE bacteria present than non organics...

I often worried with the premade as to freeze thaw cycles ... thanks for the how many handle it


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: Auntie Crazy on September 27, 2009, 11:39:02 AM
e coli and salmonella ... some have lost the cats :'( :'( ... ..

Could you be more specific? Who has lost how many cats? What were they feeding and what methodology were they using? Where did they get the food and how did they store it? What tests were done to prove it was either e coli and/or salmonella that killed these cats? Who were the vets involved? Pm me with the vet info if you don't want it public - I would very much like to talk with him/her to learn how to prevent a similar "issue" with my furchildren.

Cats digestive systems evolved to handle the bacterial contaminants in the prey they eat. I'd really have to have more info on these claims before I gave them any credence at all.

You and I have had similar discussions before, Jen. It's frustrating when you post statements like this, but don't provide any actual details. It unnecessarily scares people who are already wary and just want to do the best they can for their cats. If you're truly trying to be helpful, then post the whole story so everyone else knows what NOT to do.


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: petslave on September 27, 2009, 01:00:00 PM
Personal experience here that might account for some of these reports.  When my cat Mickey went into his decline from what ultimately turned out to be (turned into?) intestinal cancer, we were working on IBD issues with him.  Many people suggest a raw diet for IBD, and a number of cats improve on it.  But for some cats, it can create bigger problems. 

I tried it on Mickey when he first started having trouble, and his diarrhea went from bad to terrible.  Again, the first pack I went through seemed to work OK for him, though he didn't improve on it.  But the second put him in bad shape.  Unlike the brand in my other post, this is a locally made, very good quality raw commercial food with limited distribution.  And the one I used was very basic - ground turkey, bones and liver.  So if a cat is already ill and having digestive issues, raw may do wonders or it may be a major problem.  This may not have anything to do with the food, but with the cat's health issue at the time.  With IBD the intestines can get extremely permeable and let microbes go directly into the system.

I think we have to be careful at touting raw as the cure-all for illness and go carefully into it.  Especially with intestinal problems or compromised immune systems. 


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: lesliek on September 27, 2009, 04:42:17 PM
Tried raw pork today for their lunch & it was a big hit ! 5 out of 5 paws up. I didn't add anything,it was straight pieces of raw pork. The cats didn't want their cooked dinner,they were looking for more pork . The dogs as always eat anything.


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: Auntie Crazy on September 27, 2009, 05:18:37 PM
Ah, I think a clarification / distinction is in order.

Commercial raw is NOT all raw; it's full of stuff just like other commercially produced cat foods and has been processed just like they have. This thread is for non-commercially prepared raw and any statements I, personally, make always refer to fresh raw foods.

Because of the additives (check the ingredients) and the extra processing, I'm not the slightest bit surprised that a commercially-processed raw food caused more problems than it solved. I'm so sorry you had to go through that, Petslave! When I put my my four pound Yorkie on NV raw, she gained an ENTIRE pound, lost fur and grew patches of raw, scaly skin. All symptoms disappeared when I stopped feeding her the NV. Without a doubt, Jasmine was allergic to something added to the raw meat in the NV.

Fresh raw, now, is world's away from commercial raw. I would be willing to bet that a fresh raw diet wouldn't cause you the same problems, Petslave.

That said, of course, no diet can cure all things. ;D  


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: mainecoonpeg on September 27, 2009, 05:23:30 PM
Are you folks who are feeding non-commercial raw, purchasing your meats as organic or free range or both?

Thanks in advance.


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: sharky on September 27, 2009, 05:26:25 PM
Are you folks who are feeding non-commercial raw, purchasing your meats as organic or free range or both?

Thanks in advance.

I use what is typically called free range .. ie not hormones, antibiotics and are humanely treated


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: Auntie Crazy on September 27, 2009, 06:18:31 PM
I buy meats and organs that are not enhanced (marinades, etc), but I do not specifically seek out either organic or free-range products.


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: Cato on September 27, 2009, 08:36:03 PM
I haven't had any problems with home-fed raw for my dogs, but I did have an issue with one popular commercial raw food.  I bought their organic chicken line to try on the cats, and all the cats that ate it got terrible diarrhea.  I had just finished several packs of their non-organic food with them, exact same formula, so I didn't see how it could be a food switch problem.  

I fed it to my little dog, still not believing it was a sanitation problem, and he ended up with bad diarrhea too.  So I'm totally convinced that batch was contaminated with bacteria.  I don't trust raw commercial anymore.  Who knows how many times it's been handled or sat around under warmer conditions.

Cato, is the raw diet recipe you're using posted in the threads here?  Are you grinding meats or just feeding chopped raw meat with supplements added?  I'd like to start feeding some raw to my cats that will eat it.  I don't have money or kitchen space to get into the grinding thing though.

The only time I fed commecial raw to my cats was right at the very very start of transitioning them.  I remember buying NV raw medallions - rabbit formula.  They did not take to it too well - taste-wise - but no diarrhea or tummy upsets.  But I was a bit leery of the color of the raw food.  It was not pink as one would expect, but greyish.  At the time - April 2007, I was just working out a home-made raw diet and waiting for my grinder and all to arrive. When they did, I used he recipe concocted by Anne of catnutrition.org.  I tweaked it to include veggies for scrubage because I am not totally convinced that cats don't need fiber.   I used that recipe until Kaffe got a T4 spike.  I went back to the drawing board, so to speak, and formulated a recipe just to address his condition.  I was able to bring that T4 down within a month with the new diet.  It's in the Kaffe Meowmie thread somewhere.  I have several versions, actually, using chicken, guinea hen, turkey or beef - never pork (pork has to be cooked). I tried lamb but it is way too fatty.  

Right now, Cato eats a formula he loves very much - chicken drumsticks (flesh only) with peas and pumpkin - all organic.  I cannot grind the bones of drumsticks with my present grinder, so I use eggshell for the calcium.  Sorry, I can give the ingredients, but the processing is a my close-guarded secret  :D ;) :)  

As a general rule - for myself - I do not buy commercial raw food because I cannot ascertain the conditions by which the raw ingredients were handled.  I'm quite particular about that.  However, I do know several people who feed commercial raw to their cats and have had no issues.  I think they must get their commercial raw well-frozen or freshly made.  

For those who want to feed raw but find the sheer number of supplements to add too daunting, I advocate buying fresh chicken parts, chop them up yourself in your on sanitary kitchen (as fine or as coarse as your kitty would accept) and then just add a commercially prepared rawfood supplement pack like that offered by Celestial pets or Feline Future.  


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: Auntie Crazy on September 27, 2009, 09:16:48 PM
Even better, if you feed using the 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other organ formula, with a little salmon oil drizzled over it a couple of times a week, you don't need any supplements at all.

If you feed ground instead of whole prey or frankenprey, you should just throw in a little extra taurine, but that's it.

This is assuming, of course, that you are feeding fresh, non-commercial, not cooked or seared or otherwise altered raw meats and organs.

And pork is actually fine to feed. Cats all over the world eat raw pork without problems, some even eat it exclusively. If you live in a still developing country, there might be an issue, but commercial pork from the US, Canada, a few EU countries and Australia is safe. In fact, if you live in Australia, your peace of mind should be even greater; they have never had a problem with trichinosis.
 
Trichinosis parasites die if frozen for three weeks, so even in the countries where it's common, it can be addressed.


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: petslave on September 28, 2009, 08:54:56 PM
And don't forget Alnutrin for supplements if you need to add any.

What chicken body part has the best bone to meat ratio that gives the preferred calcium:phosphorous ratio?


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: sharky on September 29, 2009, 10:01:09 AM
And don't forget Alnutrin for supplements if you need to add any.

What chicken body part has the best bone to meat ratio that gives the preferred calcium:phosphorous ratio?

if memory serves it is the thigh


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: lesliek on September 29, 2009, 05:39:09 PM
I've been freezing all my meat before use whether raw or cooked. It makes me feel a little safer.


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: Cato on September 29, 2009, 06:06:34 PM
And don't forget Alnutrin for supplements if you need to add any.

What chicken body part has the best bone to meat ratio that gives the preferred calcium:phosphorous ratio?

I believe that would be chicken thighs.  If your cat gets constipated, lessen the amount of bones.  I just chop off the very ends of the thigh bone which contains all the grizzlies.  Anyway, I put back he collagen through the chicken stock that I use to help mix the raw food and supplements together.

I think I posted a tablethat shows the amount of bones in percentage of various chicken parts.  Its in the old Meowmie thread somewhere.


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: Auntie Crazy on October 24, 2009, 07:09:30 PM
You can get these percentages through the USDA site, too. I've used it a LOT!

http://www.ars.usda.gov/main/site_main.htm?modecode=12-35-45-00 (http://www.ars.usda.gov/main/site_main.htm?modecode=12-35-45-00)


Title: Re: Raw Diets (Not Commercially Prepared)
Post by: sharky on October 25, 2009, 03:41:46 PM
You can get these percentages through the USDA site, too. I've used it a LOT!

http://www.ars.usda.gov/main/site_main.htm?modecode=12-35-45-00 (http://www.ars.usda.gov/main/site_main.htm?modecode=12-35-45-00)


thank you ... I lost that think in a crash ...