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TBOBINA
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« on: June 09, 2008, 12:02:55 AM » |
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Ive been reading this book again by Elizabeth Hodgkins and reading about crd. The question I have is this. My cats have both been on Wellness canned for almost a year now and im worried about the phosphorus levels that they might have due to being on a high protein wet diet, do I need to give them phosphorous binders, even though they do not have crd (crf)? They were put on this diet because my one cat had struvite crystals. Also what exactly are phosphorous binders anyway  |
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karvskitties
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2008, 12:59:59 AM » |
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From my research, this food - while grainless, is not the same as the higher levels of Evo, Instinct, Some fish only Canned, etc.
So with wellness, I think not (the ash and resultant phosphorous are rather low in most of the formulas.)
Phosphorous binders (like calcium?) are spoke most often in the Home Cooking board. I believe egg shells might act as such (but that is from memory here, not from reading right now). The higher level foods (like Evo and 95% formulas - but not all) might need a little help. The magnesium is also something to watch out for. A LOT of kitty nutrition (like the importance of the Omegas, and A,D - but not too much) is covered in that board. You could do a search for phosphours binders. I have also read some threads in their entirety (for home cooking, etc). There is one pinned at the top especially for CRF issues -and some recipes are good for all kitties.
Of all the foods I've purchased canned, while Wellness is a good food, it is also the more commercialized formulation (but this allows for the ability to feed single source proteins for those problem kitties you are talking about).
An example - Chicken and Turkey are formulated for maintenance (less ash, phophorous). The Chicken & Herring, Turkey & Salmon, are formulated for all life stages (more protein, more ash, more phosphorous - but better for kittens?)
Hope this helps somewhat.
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« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 01:02:37 AM by karvskitties »
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kaffe
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2008, 02:41:43 AM » |
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Ive been reading this book again by Elizabeth Hodgkins and reading about crd. The question I have is this. My cats have both been on Wellness canned for almost a year now and im worried about the phosphorus levels that they might have due to being on a high protein wet diet, do I need to give them phosphorous binders, even though they do not have crd (crf)? They were put on this diet because my one cat had struvite crystals. Also what exactly are phosphorous binders anyway No, no, no! If your kitty is not a CRF/CRI/CRD kitty, you must not put phophorus binders in his food! Phosphorus is an important mineral needed for proper cell metabolism. Excess phosphorus is usually excreted via the kidney and in healthy cats with no kidney issues, this mechanism works very well. In fact even with CRF cats, the practice is NOT to add phosphorus binders until the cat's serum (blood) phosphorus level reaches 6.0mg/dL (USA measurement). CRF/CRI kitties in the early stages of renal insufficiency have serum phosphorus levels from 4 to mid 5's - sometimes they are eve lower than this. Blood Phosphorus level is usually kept low and stable in such cats by feeding a low-phosphorus diet. Towards the mid and late stage of renal failure, diet alone can no longer keep serum phosphorus levels down; hence, phosphorus binders are added to even the renal diet foods - the kidneys could no longer keep up with phosphorus load in the blood. TBOBINA - I think JustMe has the phsophorus levels of several Wellness canned foods --- I think I even saw them posted in the Wellness thread. And yes - the calcium carbonate in eggshell acts like an oral phosphate binder - but not near as effective as say the aluminum hydroxel binders. Besides, it isn't really good to add eggshell powder to an already balanced cat food - you'll only end up not just binding the phsophorus, but possible raising the cat's blood calcium level --- NOT a good idea as that potentially could lead to hyperparathyroidism and calcification of soft tissues if done lonf enough. |
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karvskitties
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2008, 03:26:09 AM » |
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What Kaffe said  She knows more here (I was just researching Glucosamine, Chondroitin & MSM for kitty joints and allergies as a supplement. Glad Kaffe cleared the other up for me. |
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JustMe
Administrator
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Posts: 7917
Elvis
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2008, 05:01:04 AM » |
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These are the various levels for Wellness foods. That list is from last year, so I will update it tonight as I recently requested them again. http://itchmoforums.com/cat-food-experiences-by-brand/wellness-canned-t1156.0.html;msg15907#msg15907TBOBINA, My cats have been on this along with Instinct for about a year. Two cats had been on rx food previously for struvite and oxalate. So far, no problems. Knock on wood. They get wet only. Three other cats just had full blood work and UA and all phosphorus levels were within normal limits. They were 7, 17, and 18 years old. |
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"One cat just leads to another." ~ Ernest Hemingway
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Orange Fuzzball
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2008, 09:44:52 AM » |
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Kaffe is correct. Don't medicate a condition that doesn't exist, or you could end up going too far in the other direction.
You will hear a lot of talk about CRF and phosphorus on these boards because it's such a common condition, but it's important to note that high levels of phosphorus do not cause CRF or kidney damage. Cats who already have a kidney problem have difficulty getting rid of phosphorus efficiently, so it needs to be restricted in those cats - but healthy cats are well equipped to deal with any extra phosphorus they might be getting in their diets.
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TBOBINA
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2008, 10:03:46 AM » |
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Thank you for all your replies. Last night after reading that I got so worried that I was doing something wrong. I found a web site last night in this forum on a list of canned food by dry matter basis for the amount of phosphorous etc.
Looks like the Wellness is kinda high .94
Wysong looks to be the lowest, but protein isnt as high, and has grain in it yuck!
Why doesnt someone make a food that is a bit lower in phosphorous?
but as Kaffe says they need some phosphorous.
I just hope that this food im feeding for almost a year now is good, and not just mostly potato, and it better have suffecient Taurine levels.
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kaffe
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2008, 01:30:12 PM » |
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Thank you for all your replies. Last night after reading that I got so worried that I was doing something wrong. I found a web site last night in this forum on a list of canned food by dry matter basis for the amount of phosphorous etc.
Looks like the Wellness is kinda high .94
Wysong looks to be the lowest, but protein isnt as high, and has grain in it yuck!
Why doesnt someone make a food that is a bit lower in phosphorous?
but as Kaffe says they need some phosphorous.
I just hope that this food im feeding for almost a year now is good, and not just mostly potato, and it better have suffecient Taurine levels.
It's good that you are monitoring levels of certain nutrients in your kitties food, TBOBINA. The thing with phosphorus is that all meats have phosphorus - some meats are higher and some lower. As a rough guide, chicken, pork and some cuts of beef are relatively lower in phosphorus that see foods --- all fishyfoods are high in phosphorus and that's why some make it a point to not feed too much fish to a CRF cat or for that matter, a senior cat. As for adequate taurine, if your canned food says, 0.05% taurine, that is meeting AAFCO standard for wet food. Most canned cat food these days list 0.05% taurine on their ingredient list, but whether or not the food actually conatins that level is of course a question. If you are worried that your cats may not be getting adequate amounts of taurine from their diet, supplementing with taurine or better yet, a multivit is a good idea. |
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TBOBINA
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 04:34:00 PM » |
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Thanks Kaffe  |
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3catkidneyfailure
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 04:51:45 PM » |
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I can only go by what my vets recommended when I had three cats come up positive
for renal failure in early 2007. Even though the bloodwork showed phosphorous values
below 4, binders were immediately recommended to be added. So I guess that leaves a
question as to why. And I don't have that answer, just the experience.
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lesliek
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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2008, 05:32:51 PM » |
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3cat-Maybe the vet saw something in the #'s leading him to think the damage was progressing. It may have been an early catch on something.
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"the world's most inept extortionist"
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kaffe
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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2008, 07:07:30 PM » |
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I can only go by what my vets recommended when I had three cats come up positive
for renal failure in early 2007. Even though the bloodwork showed phosphorous values
below 4, binders were immediately recommended to be added. So I guess that leaves a
question as to why. And I don't have that answer, just the experience.
oh... I'm sorry 3Cat if I gave you a moment of anxiety  ... I confess I have no experience with CRF (not yet, God willing)... the information I have comes from daily reading of the files and posts of those taking care of CRF kitties at the FelineCRFSupport group... they (and their vets) say that phosphate binders be added only when serum phosphate level reaches 6mg/dL... although I know of some list members who insist on feeding high protein diet and then take care of the phosphorus load by adding phosphate binders when Phos is at 5.0mg/dL. I guess there is a range in treatment options... your vet may have seen something in the blood tests that indicated phosphate binders may be prudent at 4mg/dL. But one thing that kinda mystefies me: they say, use phosphate binders only when the serum P is 6mg/d - with the goal of reducing it to 4mg/dL!!! huh? Then why wait for it to get to 6mg/dL - see what I mean? Wouldn't it be prudent to use phosphate binders when the number are creeping up towards the 5's? I don't know... |
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Orange Fuzzball
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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2008, 07:53:55 PM » |
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If the Wellness is 0.94% by dry matter basis, that's actually quite a bit lower than average, especially for a grain-free formula. I used to feed Wellness (the Turkey and Beef & Salmon flavours) when KD's kidneys were only mildly compromised, and those two formulas were among the lowest in phosphorus among the "good" brands of canned food. Felidae Platinum is another one, I believe.
How old are your cats? If they're young, you don't need to be worrying about phosphorus at all. If they're older, you may want to avoid the very high phosphorus formulas (I've seen some well over 2%). But either way, you should be good with what you're feeding now, at least from a phosphorus standpoint.
People have a bit of a skewed perspective on phosphorus, because the prescription kidney diets restrict phosphorus to less than 0.5%. You cannot get that low a level of phosphorus in a commercial diet - 0.5% is the AAFCO minimum for maintenance formulas. Healthy cats can safely eat a lot more than that, as long as it's balanced with other nutrients. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus is one that gets discussed a lot, but I'm not knowledgeable in that area; maybe someone else can expand on that.
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3catkidneyfailure
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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2008, 08:38:45 PM » |
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I'm with you all, I don't know why either. My survivors are older. The one I lost was 10.
As soon as bloodwork was done, the recommendation was to add them even with a
diet of Hills prescription KD. So we do need medical opinion as to why, and I will try
to get it if I can.
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awknddragn
Jr. Member
Posts: 20
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2008, 07:21:03 PM » |
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Since I had some recent experience with high phosphorus levels, here's some insight...
From Tanya's CRF site:
High phosphorus levels are very damaging to their health and can make the disease progress more quickly. This is because too much phosphorus can cause an imbalance of phosphorus and calcium in the body, which eventually can trigger problems with a hormone called parathyroid hormone (PTH), and lead to a condition called secondary hyperparathyroidism.
Pam
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